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bones_IV
Guest
You see Sandusky, I actually provided documentation in my responses, where as you have given none. My arguements shoot yours right out of the water.
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Churchmouse
Guest
Greetings!
You really don’t seem to be thinking this one through: If the unclean weren’t allowed in the Temple due to sin, how is this necessarily evidence of needing *afterlife * purification? The unclean not being allowed into the Temple doesn’t necessarily support a purgatory considering that those who are going to hell (the unclean) cannot enter heaven (and the Temple) as well. Why force purgatory, and not hell, into this???
Peace,
CM
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Because they did rituals to purify themselves before they could go in…it never said that they never went in at all - just that they couldn’t go in before they were purified.
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bones_IV
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Thanks!
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Churchmouse
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Again, I don’t see how this would imply a purgatory. Purifying themselves doesn’t mean that they were “forgiven” but still carried the stains of sin, thus needing purification before entering. I still say that folks are reading too much into this and trying to find parallels where there are none.
Peace,
CM
Greetings!
Again, I don’t see how this would imply a purgatory. Purifying themselves doesn’t mean that they were “forgiven” but still carried the stains of sin, thus needing purification before entering. I still say that folks are reading too much into this and trying to find parallels where there are none.
Peace,
CM
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E.E.N.S
Guest
(You can lead a horse to water…)
Here are some more parallels:
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
(cont’d)
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory. 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory. 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
And here are some that refer to purification after death by fire:
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.
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Churchmouse
Guest
E.E.N.S. said:
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Sorry, I’m not interested in the verses Catholics claim “imply” purgatory. That’s been dealt with many times. Neither does this dialogue need to be obfuscated by finding more assumed “parallels.” I am specifically speaking about the alleged “parallel” between the purification rituals of the Temple priests and afterlife purification. A parallel I don’t see and still claim is being forced into your interpretation. You haven’t shown me otherwise.
Peace,
CM
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sandusky
Guest
You equate wisdom with reason throughout your post, and I have no problem with that. However, you have not read the Chapter very carefully.
Get your Bible and go back to Chapter 1, verse 21:
1 Corinthians 1:21
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
The Gospel is contrary to reason. In fact go to v18, and see how the world views the Gospel:
1 Corinthians 1:18
*18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. *
The Greek word translated “foolishness,” is pronounced: moria. From it, we get our English word, moron. So Paul says, that to the world, the Gospel is moronic. Moronic is not reasonable.
You also say:
In fact, those hidden things, and the mysteries that Paul speaks about are known. When Paul uses the word “mystery” in the N.T., he is speaking about something not revealed in the O.T., but now revealed in the N.T. (cf Rom 11:25; 16:25ff). See also 1 cor 2:1, in which the mysteries are referred to as the testimony of God. So God’s plan of salvation is known. That is why the believer is sure of his salvation. The Scripture is very clear on that, however, you are taught the opposite.
Think about it for a moment…
What you are saying, is that God has gone through the process of revealing Himself, and His plan to us, through the prophets, the apostles, and His Son. He has written it in the Scriptures, and He has done that so we won’t understand.
That thinking doesn’t make any sense.
God revealed Himself, and His plan, so that His people, those to whom the scriptures are written, will know.
God Bless
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Churchmouse said:
It was clear enough for the early Church Fathers, it clear enough to many on this forum (as well as around the world), and it’s clear to me - hence the “you can lead a horse to water” statement…
CM, it’s too bad that you are too blinded by your biasness to even admit that there is a parallel here, even if you don’t agree with it. It kind of makes debating with you pointless.
Peace.
“When the spirit of truth comes, he will lead you to all truth.” John 16:13
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sandusky
Guest
E.E.N.S. said:
You are engaging in what many on this forum call “verse slinging.”
How about some exegesis of each of those verses; give some explanation.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Just one of MANY examples of the early Church Fathers:
“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” *Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). *
“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” *Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). *
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E.E.N.S
Guest
You must not have read them, because they were explanations. Next time read first - then reply. Thanks.
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Churchmouse
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Peace,
CM
What is “clear”? Are we still speaking about the “Temple priest purification ritual = afterlife purification” theory or you speaking generally. Okay, give me some Church Fathers, preferably within the first 2 centuries, who taught the same parallel.
Why is it that every time someone is called to task for their claims, they are thrown subtle ad hominems such as “blinded” and “biased”? You made or agreed to the parallel and my questions were sound regarding it. Any thinking individual can see that the purification rituals doesn’t necessarily parallel “afterlife” purification. It is just as much a parallel for the cleansing of sin which allows one to enter Heaven without it having to be “purgatorial.” My point has been made.
Peace,
CM
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Churchmouse
Guest
Yes, that’s exactly what it is, “verse-slinging.” Just quote a bunch of verses and add selective commentary. No exegesis required.
Peace,
CM
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bones_IV
Guest
You lost the volley in the opeining sentence. Faith is not blind its reasonable. Let me ask you this: can you fully comprehend God? The answer is no. I did not say anything about not knowing what God’s plan is. Consider this verse for a minute in John it says “whoever eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.” This is a hard saying. Can you fully understand the Trinity? No, its a mystery. Jesus did not ask us to understand, sandusky, but to have faith. So say that God has revealed his plan of salvation is not the same thing as saying as saying your salvation is assured. Saying that our salvation is assured is like saying one could rape one hundred women in a day and still go to heaven. That’s what Martin Luther said. Consider for a minute do you not have to work to get a college degree, how can you possibly say that your salvation is garuanteed? You say it is, but you contradict yourself when you work hard at your job to get a pay check. Not? You live it everday of your life. Being saved means you have the opportunity for salvation it doesn’t mean your salvation is assured. That is quite presumptious.
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Churchmouse
Guest
E.E.N.S.:
Peace,
CM
Yes, I would agree that Clement of Alexandria and Origen were the “seed-bearers” of this doctrine, but this doesn’t do much for the “Temple priest purification ritual = afterlife purification” theory does it.
Peace,
CM
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Well then, I am sorry that you can’t see such a clear parallel.
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bones_IV
Guest
Churchmouse, I’ve got news for you we have people in our Church who are experts and the Catholic Church interprets the bible for us. Let me ask you this. Which came first sacred tradition or the bible? Sacred tradition came first, the holy scriptures came later. Remember, the bible had not been written down yet. Imagine, that Jesus had ascended into heaven and left the Apostles with just the holy scriptures. I gaurantee you that the Church would have fallen shortly thereafter.
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