Purgatory

[sandusky]

On my way:

And what makes you think that you are interpreting the Bible correctly? Can you read Latin, Greek and/or any other language that the Bible has been written in? If not then how do you know what you are reading is right?

There are very good English translations available, so one doesn’t need to understand the biblical languages in order to understand the gospel. Latin is not a biblical language. But to answer your question, I studied Koine Greek for a year and half in the classroom, and continue to study scripture using it.

 

[On_my_way]

sandusky:

There are very good English translations available, so one doesn’t need to understand the biblical languages in order to understand the gospel. Latin is not a biblical language. But to answer your question, I studied Koine Greek for a year and half in the classroom, and continue to study scripture using it.

So no Bibles were written in Latin. Maybe the Bibles that you may have read were not in Latin. Oh yeah I forgot you don’t read the Catholic Bible. By the way my wife is Greek and she speaks it and understands it fluently. She did not have to study it. Again how do you know what you read in english is the proper interpretation. Again remember that the Early Church fathers of the Catholic Church put the Bible together. Remember this also even the fathers of the reformation Calvin, Luther and Zwingli once believed in the teachings, doctrines and traditions of the Catholic Church. Remember they did not write the Bible all they did was take things out that they did not believe in. Kind of sounds like you follow in thier footsteps. Who gave them the power to take the seven books out of the Bible? You know that purgatory exsist because are arguing against it. Why would you argue against something that you think does not exsist? I don’t get into any arguments with people about Bigfoot and the lockness monster. Why should I, I think they don’t exsist.

Oh yeah one more thing. Before Jesus died the doors to heaven was locked right? We all agree on that right. WTBS, where was moses, david and everyone else before Jesus died? Were they in heaven or hell? Since, no soul is cleansed in heaven and no soul is saved from hell, I wonder where they could have been, since they died before Jesus.

 

[sandusky]

On my way:

So no Bibles were written in Latin.

I never said there were no Bibles written in Latin, did I? Go back and read my post.

Jerome’s vulgate was the major Bible around for more than 1,000 years; it was in Latin.

What I said was, Latin is not a biblical language, ie., none of the original writers wrote in Latin. They wrote in Hebrew, and a few small sections in Aramaic in the O.T., the N.T. was Koine Greek.

The Greek your wife knows, is not biblical Greek, so it wouldn’t be much use with the Scripture.
On my way:

Again how do you know what you read in english is the proper interpretation.

You have been conditioned to reject any interpretation but Romes, as evidenced below:
On my way:

Again remember that the Early Church fathers of the Catholic Church put the Bible together. Remember this also even the fathers of the reformation Calvin, Luther and Zwingli once believed in the teachings, doctrines and traditions of the Catholic Church. Remember they did not write the Bible all they did was take things out that they did not believe in. Kind of sounds like you follow in thier footsteps. Who gave them the power to take the seven books out of the Bible?

This is a typical Catholic diatribe that is without foundation.
On my way:

You know that purgatory exsist because are arguing against it. Why would you argue against something that you think does not exsist?

You are losing it, man.

 

[bones_IV]

On my way:

So no Bibles were written in Latin. Maybe the Bibles that you may have read were not in Latin. Oh yeah I forgot you don’t read the Catholic Bible. By the way my wife is Greek and she speaks it and understands it fluently. She did not have to study it. Again how do you know what you read in english is the proper interpretation. Again remember that the Early Church fathers of the Catholic Church put the Bible together. Remember this also even the fathers of the reformation Calvin, Luther and Zwingli once believed in the teachings, doctrines and traditions of the Catholic Church. Remember they did not write the Bible all they did was take things out that they did not believe in. Kind of sounds like you follow in thier footsteps. Who gave them the power to take the seven books out of the Bible? You know that purgatory exsist because are arguing against it. Why would you argue against something that you think does not exsist? I don’t get into any arguments with people about Bigfoot and the lockness monster. Why should I, I think they don’t exsist.

Oh yeah one more thing. Before Jesus died the doors to heaven was locked right? We all agree on that right. WTBS, where was moses, david and everyone else before Jesus died? Were they in heaven or hell? Since, no soul is cleansed in heaven and no soul is saved from hell, I wonder where they could have been, since they died before Jesus.

You have some very good and interesting points.

 

[On_my_way]

sandusky what is biblical greek? She has read a bible that was written in greek. Her dad is Greek Orthodox. Come on buddy are you going to tell me that my wife does not understand what she is reading. Oh yeah you studied for 1 1/2 years and you know more than her years of speaking it and understanding it.

You also have been conditioned to reject any interpretations that is Rome’s, as evidence by all your postings.

Also saying that the Catholic Church did not put the Bible together is a typical protestant diatribe with no foundation.

Come on admit it, Purgatory exsist. Just tapout already.

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

I personally think it parallels nicely with “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27)…but that’s just me I guess.

You’re right. It’s just you because you choose to, but not that it makes any real sense.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.”

Well, something’s definitely wrong with Catholic theology in regards to the interpretation of this verse considering that Satan is standing in God’s presence in Job 1. I’m sure you would agree that Satan is the most “unclean” of the unclean.

From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory.

I really don’t see how you got all this from one simple verse or from Scripture in general.

Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

No one denies that purging or sanctification happens while one is living, it is afterlife purification that is at issue here. Again, one would have to read in “purgatory” to make these verses seem “purgatorial” (as within a purgatory). For a place, realm, or state where the overwhelming majority of Christians will go to or endure, to leave it to mere “implications” doesn’t make any sense. In all the writings of the prophets, the teachings of Christ, and the Apostles and other NT writers, I am to believe that none of them would expound on where most Christians would go, but that they would merely “imply” the belief in the pages of Holy Scripture. It make absolutely no sense.

Peace,
CM

 

[sandusky]

On my way:

sandusky what is biblical greek? She has read a bible that was written in greek. Her dad is Greek Orthodox. Come on buddy are you going to tell me that my wife does not understand what she is reading. Oh yeah you studied for 1 1/2 years and you know more than her years of speaking it and understanding it.

If your wife is Greek, and I have no reason to doubt that she is, I am sure that she has read a Bible that is printed in Greek. However, that is not the point. The Greek language that the scriptures were written in and translated from, is not the contemporary Greek language. The Greek of the Bible, known as “koine,” meaning, “common,” is a dead language. It has not been neither written, nor spoken for more than millienia.

If I could find a biblical basis for purgatory, I would proclaim it. But, alas, I find none. And I can not persuade you, because you do not trust me. Simple as that.

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

sandusky what is biblical greek? She has read a bible that was written in greek. Her dad is Greek Orthodox. Come on buddy are you going to tell me that my wife does not understand what she is reading. Oh yeah you studied for 1 1/2 years and you know more than her years of speaking it and understanding it.

You also have been conditioned to reject any interpretations that is Rome’s, as evidence by all your postings.

Also saying that the Catholic Church did not put the Bible together is a typical protestant diatribe with no foundation.

Come on admit it, Purgatory exsist. Just tapout already.

Like Sandusky stated, the Greek your wife speaks isn’t the same as the koine Greek of the NT. Also, considering your wife and her father are Greek Orthodox, I assume they don’t believe in purgatory either. The Greek Orthodox church doesn’t hold to this RC distinctive.

Peace,
CM

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse:

Like Sandusky stated, the Greek your wife speaks isn’t the same as the koine Greek of the NT. Also, considering your wife and her father are Greek Orthodox, I assume they don’t believe in purgatory either. The Greek Orthodox church doesn’t hold to this RC distinctive.

Peace,
CM

When did I say that my wife was Greek Orthodox? I think I only said that her dad was. I typed it in English and not koine Greek.

 

[Vincent1560]

bones_IV:

Mortal sins destroy your relationship with God. A mortal sin must be done voluntarily. That is to say you did it freely. Your soul is like a battery. When you sin you hurt your relationship with God. A dead soul is like a battery that has no charge in it. Venial sins are lesser sins but one should look at it as an excuse to sin. Remember, after death there is no repentance! The opportunity to repent hence is lost. So if one does die in a state of mortal sin, the soul will have no place to go but to hell.

I don’t agree with this. I have had others like E.E.N.S explain the concept of mortal sin to me, but I guess I cannot reconcile a sin as not being covered by Christ’s sacrifice, except blashemy against the Holy Spirit, which is effectively refusal of the grace of Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse and sandusky, i’m going to go out on a limb right now and use 2 maccabees 12:44-46 as a biblical affirmation of purgatory.

“For if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”

WTBS, it is impossible for anyone to aid souls in heaven because they have no need for help they are already there. Also there is no ppossibility to aid any soul in hell for they who are in hell have no hope. This passage can only mean one thing that there is an intermediate state where the faithful departed make right the sins that they have commited. Purgatory!!!

If protestants follow luthers views then they will have no idea what Maccabees is about. For it was luther who took the 7 books out of the Bible. Do you know why he took out the book of Maccabees? Let me tell you why, because it was so contrary to the "justification by faith alone theology of the reformers. Knowing this had happened let me ask anyone this question. Would you rely on the private judgment of a renegade priest, who also threw out other books from the Bible? Or would you accept the protected judgment of the Catholic Church, who, around 400 AD used her authority to determine the official canon of the Bible?

The funny thing is, it is the same Bible, but 7 books light, that the protestants use to challenge the Catholic Church.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I don’t agree with this. I have had others like E.E.N.S explain the concept of mortal sin to me, but I guess I cannot reconcile a sin as not being covered by Christ’s sacrifice, except blashemy against the Holy Spirit, which is effectively refusal of the grace of Christ’s sacrifice.

A mortal sin IS covered by Jesus sacrafice, BUT the person must repent of it before he dies.

 

[sandusky]

E.E.N.S., On my way, bones_IV:

You are very sincere in your beliefs, but sincerity in what one believes with respect to God is not enough. Belief must be understood within the parameters God has set. Get outside of His parameters, and belief is unbelief.

E.E.N.S., I read through the statements you pasted with respect to purgatory. Each one of them starts with the assumption that purgatory exists, and argues from there. That is simply begging the question. When you present evidence that begs the question, I wonder if you have done your homework, or if you are so committed to the position you hold that you abrogate your responsibility to know the truth, and rely on someone else to explain it to you, or for you. God commands that each of us is to know the truth; when we stand before the Lord, we will not be able to shift responsibility from ourselves to others for how we have dealt with the Lord

Here is God’s plan in a nutshell: Adam broke the fellowship of man with God in the garden. Because of his sin, God views all men as sinners (Rom 5) who are Dead in their sin (Eph 2:1), bereft of righteousness, and who want nothing to do with God (Rom 3:10ff).

This has left man incapable of fellowship with God, and totally unable to reestablish fellowship with God. But God, desiring to have fellowship with his creature, came Himself, in the form of a man, as the Son, and He offered Himself upon the Cross, paying the full penalty of man’s sin that God’s justice demanded. That payment was in full.

That payment is not beneficial to every man; rather, it must be appropriated by faith that the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is sufficient. Man rebels against this, seeing the Gospel of the cross as foolishness (1 Cor 1:18). Man believes, with regard to salvation, that it is possible for him to live rightly, and to do good things on his own power, and that God must therefore save him for his works. But that is not Biblical. No man is saved by works of any kind, not just the works of the Mosaic law, but any works. If the works of God’s law could not save, certainly the works of man’s law cannot save. Works cannot save (Ps 143:2; Is 65:6; Acts 13:39; Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16, 21; 3:11).

It is by Grace through faith, and not of works (Eph 2:8ff).

There are four person involved in your salvation:

The Father, who elects; the Son, who effects; the Spirit, who applies, and you, who must believe.

Those four are involved in salvation, and nothing, or no one else; not sacraments, not penance, not any other person, not purgatory, just those four people, performing those four tasks.

God Bless you guys,

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

You’re right. It’s just you because you choose to, but not that it makes any real sense.

You are right, I chose to believe it because of the overwhelming evidence in favor of it, from Sacred Scripture, from the early Church Fathers, and from the Bride of Christ, the Church. And I didn’t always believe it either, remember I am a convert and I had to overcome these same obstacles that you are currently struggling with.

Churchmouse:

Well, something’s definitely wrong with Catholic theology in regards to the interpretation of this verse considering that Satan is standing in God’s presence in Job 1. I’m sure you would agree that Satan is the most “unclean” of the unclean.

I must be missing your point here.

Churchmouse:

I really don’t see how you got all this from one simple verse or from Scripture in general.

It’s simple reasoning, but I can clearly see that you are not open for any debate on the issue, regardless what information is presented to you.

Churchmouse:

No one denies that purging or sanctification happens while one is living, it is afterlife purification that is at issue here. Again, one would have to read in “purgatory” to make these verses seem “purgatorial” (as within a purgatory). For a place, realm, or state where the overwhelming majority of Christians will go to or endure, to leave it to mere “implications” doesn’t make any sense. In all the writings of the prophets, the teachings of Christ, and the Apostles and other NT writers, I am to believe that none of them would expound on where most Christians would go, but that they would merely “imply” the belief in the pages of Holy Scripture. It make absolutely no sense.

There are plenty of places in scripture that point to a “purgatory,” in fact even Jesus says Himself “that sin will not be forgiven in this life or the next.” Or the next?! If we are in heaven we won’t need anymore forgiveness, nor if we are in hell, so there must be another state or else what is Jesus refering to here? Also, what about the many places in scripture where they are praying for the dead? Why pray for the dead? If they are in heaven they don’t need your prayers, nor if the are in hell (it won’t do them any good.)

CM, I can understand that you may not believe in a purgatorial state - despite the evidence - however, to say that “It makes absolutely no sense” is rediculous and any cut away at your credibility.

I only ask that if you are going to debate (or “dialogue” as your prefer ), then please do so in a reasonable, civil manner.

Pax tecum!

 

[E.E.N.S]

sandusky:

E.E.N.S., I read through the statements you pasted with respect to purgatory. Each one of them starts with the assumption that purgatory exists, and argues from there. .

Of course. And your posts are different? I think not.

sandusky:

That is simply begging the question. When you present evidence that begs the question, I wonder if you have done your homework, or if you are so committed to the position you hold that you abrogate your responsibility to know the truth, and rely on someone else to explain it to you, or for you.

It was through my “homework” that I came to know the Truth. I am a convert to Catholicism - I haven’t always held this position. So rest assured that I have done my homework. (PS~ I feel the same way when I read your posts - except for you “seem” to know Greek better than I, but I am okay with that.)

sandusky:

God commands that each of us is to know the truth; when we stand before the Lord, we will not be able to shift responsibility from ourselves to others for how we have dealt with the Lord.

Amen!

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

When did I say that my wife was Greek Orthodox? I think I only said that her dad was. I typed it in English and not koine Greek.

Well, I stand corrected, yet the Greek Orthodox are just another sect which doesn’t believe in this RC distinctive. Their eschatology is similar to Tertullian’s view. I’m happy that you realize that modern Greek isn’t the same as the Greek of the NT and the LXX.

Peace,
CM

 

[NickyCW]

Let me just ask a question.
Don’t we need to try to be good if we are believers? Don’t we need to follow God’s commands, at least the best we can? Aren’t we called to love God and neighbor? If we really “believe” and have accepted Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, isn’t it also true that we should bear fruit of the vine to which we are a part?

OSAS says no works are required. Just believe. Right? If that is true, than we do NOT need to even love God-that would be a work. Just believe. Consider this: “Even the demons believe…and shudder.”

As I learned through my examination of Truth, which led to my eventual conversion from Baptist to Catholic, I found that we are called to bear fruit. This is what Catholics call works. Works do not GET us to heaven - God’s redemptive grace does that. However, we still have to participate with Christ in allowing him to perfect us.

 

[E.E.N.S]

NickyCW:

Let me just ask a question.
Don’t we need to try to be good if we are believers? Don’t we need to follow God’s commands, at least the best we can? Aren’t we called to love God and neighbor? If we really “believe” and have accepted Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, isn’t it also true that we should bear fruit of the vine to which we are a part?

OSAS says no works are required. Just believe. Right? If that is true, than we do NOT need to even love God-that would be a work. Just believe. Consider this: “Even the demons believe…and shudder.”

As I learned through my examination of Truth, which led to my eventual conversion from Baptist to Catholic, I found that we are called to bear fruit. This is what Catholics call works. Works do not GET us to heaven - God’s redemptive grace does that. However, we still have to participate with Christ in allowing him to perfect us.

Amen!

 

[On_my_way]

Anyone who believes in faith alone.

How come James 2:14-26 talks about faith and works. Verse 26, “For just as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

Remember 1 thing that I posted earlier, that Luther took 7 books out of the Bible and James was one of them. Why did he take this book out? Well it’s simple because it goes against the theory that all protestants believe in. “Justification by Faith Alone.”

Everything that the Catholics believe in is in Scripture and prots. disagree with us because they don’t have all the books in thier Bible. Remember agian Luther, Calvin and Zwingli which ever one wrote the protestant version of the Bible took out books because it contradicted what they believe in.

There are more verses in the Bible that does prove that Purgatory exsist, but no sense in wasting my time qouting them, because Catholics believe and the rest of the other groups don’t. They believe in God and thats enough for them. But deep down in thier hearts they know that Luther, Calvin and the rest of the reformation leaders made a very big mistake in leaving the Church.

 

[On_my_way]

Churchmouse:

Well, I stand corrected, yet the Greek Orthodox are just another sect which doesn’t believe in this RC distinctive. Their eschatology is similar to Tertullian’s view. I’m happy that you realize that modern Greek isn’t the same as the Greek of the NT and the LXX.

Peace,
CM

Just to let you know that it is being checked out by my wife if her grandmother spoke and/or understood koine Greek. My wifes Great grandmaother was a very spiritual Orthodox Greek and spoke many different languages. My wife will be making some phone calls to her relatives back in Chicago. Will let you guys know what turns up.