Purgatory

[sandusky]

NickyCW:

OSAS says no works are required. Just believe. Right? If that is true, than we do NOT need to even love God-that would be a work. Just believe. Consider this: “Even the demons believe…and shudder.”

This is a completely erroneous statement. You are listening to too many Catholics. I would suggest you study the doctrine of predestination, and then you’ll know something about. I’ll recommend two books:

1. The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice
2. The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner. This books is a classic in dealing with the subject. After you’ve read and studied through those books, you’ll be better prepared to argue against it, unless of course, they convict you of the truth.

 

[On_my_way]

sandusky:

This is a completely erroneous statement. You are listening to too many Catholics. I would suggest you study the doctrine of predestination, and then you’ll know something about. I’ll recommend two books:

1. The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice
2. The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner. This books is a classic in dealing with the subject. After you’ve read and studied through those books, you’ll be better prepared to argue against it, unless of course, they convict you of the truth.

I sure hope the 2 authors that you listed are Catholic, because if they are not then what is in those 2 books are not truth, but heresy.

 

[PaulDupre]

sandusky:

This is a completely erroneous statement. You are listening to too many Catholics. I would suggest you study the doctrine of predestination, and then you’ll know something about. I’ll recommend two books:

1. The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice
2. The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner. This books is a classic in dealing with the subject. After you’ve read and studied through those books, you’ll be better prepared to argue against it, unless of course, they convict you of the truth.

Lorraine Boettner??? You’ve got to be kidding. He wrote “Roman Catholicism”, the handbook for every anti-Catholic. Boettner claims that Catholics worship statues and practice cannibalism. Why take seriously anything he wrote?

 

[sandusky]

PaulDupre:

Lorraine Boettner??? You’ve got to be kidding. He wrote “Roman Catholicism”, the handbook for every anti-Catholic. Boettner claims that Catholics worship statues and practice cannibalism. Why take seriously anything he wrote?

Yes, and there wasn’t even one word in the book that was true.

Look, if you want to learn about the doctrine of predestination read it. If you want to stay in the dark and continue to misrepresent it don’t read it.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Lorraine Boettner??? You’ve got to be kidding. He wrote “Roman Catholicism”, the handbook for every anti-Catholic. Boettner claims that Catholics worship statues and practice cannibalism. Why take seriously anything he wrote?

LOL, I have that book! I bought it before I converted to Catholicism, but it was one that I bought when I was trying to learn from both sides. I don’t recommend it; it was almost a waste of time reading it.

 

[Churchmouse]

On my way:

Just to let you know that it is being checked out by my wife if her grandmother spoke and/or understood koine Greek. My wifes Great grandmaother was a very spiritual Orthodox Greek and spoke many different languages. My wife will be making some phone calls to her relatives back in Chicago. Will let you guys know what turns up.

I can pretty much say that your wife’s grandmother would understand some of the dialect, but not enough to make a difference. BTW, I can find out for you considering I live in Chicago .

Peace,
CM

 

[uther]

NickyCW:

Let me just ask a question.
Don’t we need to try to be good if we are believers? Don’t we need to follow God’s commands, at least the best we can? Aren’t we called to love God and neighbor? If we really “believe” and have accepted Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, isn’t it also true that we should bear fruit of the vine to which we are a part?

OSAS says no works are required. Just believe. Right? If that is true, than we do NOT need to even love God-that would be a work. Just believe. Consider this: “Even the demons believe…and shudder.”

As I learned through my examination of Truth, which led to my eventual conversion from Baptist to Catholic, I found that we are called to bear fruit. This is what Catholics call works. Works do not GET us to heaven - God’s redemptive grace does that. However, we still have to participate with Christ in allowing him to perfect us.

And you could potentially lose your salvation, but that would be of your own volition.

 

[On_my_way]

I just want to qoute, Lucius Caelius Firmianus Lactantius. He wrote “The Divine Institutions,” around A.D. 250-317. His view on purgatory.

“neither, however, should anyone imagine that the souls are to be judged immediately after death. All are detained in one common place of confinement, until that time comes when the Great Judge will make an investigation of their deserts. Then those whose justice is proved will receive the reward of immortality. Those, however, whose sins and crimes are revealed, will not rise again, but will be buried in the same darkness with the impious, destined for sure punishment.” He is saying that there is a place between heaven and hell. I think he is refering to Purgatory.

Now how can a letter dating back to 250-317 A.D. be wrong in the protestants views. This must be a Catholic view since he is refering to a place that Catholics call Purgatory. If early followers of Christ, believed in Purgatory, then why can’t present day followers believe in Purgatory.

Trust me i’ve got more where that came from.

 

[CanoeCamper55]

To my orthodox Catholic brothers and sisters:

Even though I am a new member, please consider these suggestions:

a. Try to avoid being “baited” by our protestant brothers and sisters. If they do not accept a clear defense of the faith, let it go and move on to other more important topics.

b. Arguing with non-Catholic Christians, who do not respect the authority of the Catholic Church in matters of the interpretation of Scripture, will be futile. Only the Holy Spirit will convict their hearts of the Truth of the Catholic Church, who is the person Jesus Christ.

c. Know that the Catholic Church, from the time that Jesus breathed on the apostles, has been guided by the Holy Spirit. This is especially true in matters of faith and morals, such as determining the canon of the Christian Scriptures (and Hebrew Scriptures).

d. The Holy Spirit is a spirit of church unity, not division. So, the Spirit is not at work when churches split, resulting in 30,000 protestant denominations. The father of lies is probably happy to see such a divided church.

e. Pray for our protestant brothers and sisters, since they do not have the fullness of Truth. For example, they are missing 5 or 6 sacraments, 7 books of Scripture, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, to mention just a few.

f. Know that we will probably see them in Purgatory, and probably again when we get to heaven. So, be nice…

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

You are right, I chose to believe it because of the overwhelming evidence in favor of it, from Sacred Scripture, from the early Church Fathers, and from the Bride of Christ, the Church. And I didn’t always believe it either, remember I am a convert and I had to overcome these same obstacles that you are currently struggling with.

You’re kidding me right??? Okay, go ahead and quote the overwhelming evidence from the Church Fathers who used your “Temple purification” parallel. If you’re speaking generally, then show me some Church Fathers from within the first two centuries of the Church who spoke about purgatory or afterlife purification. BTW, as an ex-Catholic, it wasn’t hard for me to find that purgatory was a later development and nothing which was taught in the earliest church.

I must be missing your point here.

It’s as simple as reading Job 1. Look at verse 6. Satan is in the presence of Jehovah. Considering that Satan is as “unclean” as you can get, where does that leave Revelation 21:27?

It’s simple reasoning, but I can clearly see that you are not open for any debate on the issue, regardless what information is presented to you.

It’s too simple. You took a verse and inserted your belief right back into it. I have no problem with debating purgatory, but if you are going to sling verses without taking the time to exegete them or “cut and paste” responses, how would you figure that’s “debating”?

There are plenty of places in scripture that point to a “purgatory,” in fact even Jesus says Himself “that sin will not be forgiven in this life or the next.” Or the next?! If we are in heaven we won’t need anymore forgiveness, nor if we are in hell, so there must be another state or else what is Jesus refering to here? Also, what about the many places in scripture where they are praying for the dead? Why pray for the dead? If they are in heaven they don’t need your prayers, nor if the are in hell (it won’t do them any good.)

You read too much into the verse. How do you know if the point Christ was trying to make was that there is NO forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Why does its parallel verse in Mark simply say that there is no forgiveness without employing the “olam ha-ba” piece? Again, too much into too little.

CM, I can understand that you may not believe in a purgatorial state - despite the evidence - however, to say that “It makes absolutely no sense” is rediculous and any cut away at your credibility.

There is no evidence. Jesus didn’t speak about it, the Apostles didn’t speak about it, the Scriptures say nothing about it, and the Church didn’t say anything about it until Clement of Alexandria and Origen planted the “seed.” You haven’t provided anything that would counteract my claim. All you provide is implications where your belief needs to be read back in.

I only ask that if you are going to debate (or “dialogue” as your prefer ), then please do so in a reasonable, civil manner.

Reasonable? Civil? Weren’t you the one who told me:

“CM, it’s too bad that you are too blinded by your biasness to even admit that there is a parallel here, even if you don’t agree with it. It kind of makes debating with you pointless.”

This was in response to my holding you to a “parallel” you made of which, to this very day, I don’t see the parallel. Now, if you couldn’t prove your “parallel”, couldn’t exegete the Scripture verses you provided, and couldn’t provide any of the earliest Church Fathers (before Clement and Origen) who would agree with your “Temple purification” parallel or taught purgatory, what is there to debate? You haven’t provided anything to debate.

CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

CanoeCamper55:

To my orthodox Catholic brothers and sisters:

…I am a new member…
Welcome! Glad to have you aboard!

CanoeCamper55:
f. Know that we will probably see them in Purgatory, and probably again when we get to heaven. So, be nice…
That’s pretty funny, considering the thread we are in and all.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

You’re kidding me right???

Not in the least.

Churchmouse:

This was in response to my holding you to a “parallel” you made of which, to this very day, I don’t see the parallel. Now, if you couldn’t prove your “parallel”, couldn’t exegete the Scripture verses you provided, and couldn’t provide any of the earliest Church Fathers (before Clement and Origen) who would agree with your “Temple purification” parallel or taught purgatory, what is there to debate? You haven’t provided anything to debate.

Prove a parallel? You either see it or you don’t - you obviously don’t. A for providing anything to debate - I have provided plenty - far more than you have provided anyway.

One last thing to fulfill a direct request of yours (ECF before Clement or Origen):

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.” Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me…faithful writings…These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.” *Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190). *

“Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease…But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy’s navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.” *The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202). *

(((Mark 6:11)))

 

[uther]

Churchmouse:

There is no evidence. Jesus didn’t speak about it, the Apostles didn’t speak about it, the Scriptures say nothing about it, and the Church didn’t say anything about it until Clement of Alexandria and Origen planted the “seed.” You haven’t provided anything that would counteract my claim. All you provide is implications where your belief needs to be read back in.
CM

Would the faith of the early Christians qualify as evidence? Karl Keating, in “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” says,
“…the graffiti in the catacombs, where the earliest Christians, during the persecutions of the first three centuries, recorded prayers for the dead.” (p. 192)

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

There is no evidence. Jesus didn’t speak about it…

Then what are your thoughts, CM, on this passage in Matt 12:32
*“And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” *What do you think that Jesus is refering to by “the world to come?”

 

[On_my_way]

One more piece of Scripture for purgatory, before I head out to the Gym to get my kickboxing workout.

Since, E.E.N.S. used the passage that I was going to use i’ll just continue with my explination on it. If you speak agianst the Holy Spirit you will not beforgiven on earth (this age) or in heaven (age to come). I’ll say this again sins cannot be forgiven in hell and sins cannot be forgiven in heaven, for nothing unclean enters heaven. Now in plain English, since noone can enter heaven with an uclean soul and no soul which is in hell will ever be cleansed, any remission of sin in the next world can and will only occur in purgatory.

Sins are not forgiven in heaven, why because the soul is already clean. Sins cannot be forgiven in hell because they have never repented and/or was a repititious sinner.

 

[uther]

I’ll add this. For a Protestant who dies in the state of grace as we understand it, and only God knows the heart, there will also be purgatory, whether they have believed in the doctrine or not.

It should be noted that the Church does not definitively claim to know whether there is a time component to purgatory. It could be virtually instantaneous. On the possibility that there is “time spent” in that state, prayers are offered for the dead, and of course, because the Bible (the original, pre-Luther Bible) tells us that it is a good thing to do.

Even evangelicals teach doctrine that has a ring of similarity when discussing Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 3:15,

If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.(KJV)

That is, insofar as a person is saved he gains eternal life, but if he has not served God well, produced fruit, he will be saved “yet so as by fire.”

Does this happen in heaven? Or is there perhaps a place or point of purgation (fire) en route? I don’t think most evangelicals give it much thought, at least from my own experience.

 

[sandusky]

E.E.N.S.:

Then what are your thoughts on this passage in Matt 12:32
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come." What do you think that Jesus is refering to by “the world to come?”

The world to come is the coming Kingdom. It is not this age, but the future kingdom age, it is not that difficult to understand. The word translated “world,” is “aion,” from which we get our word aeon. It is not “a world,” but an age of time. It refers to “time,” not “place.”

Jesus use of the language, *“And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come,” *is an emphatic statement, as evidenced by the double “neither…nor” construction.

Let’s simplify what He is saying by removing the clauses containing the word, “world,” whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him now, or ever.

Now let’s really simplify what He is saying by removing the double statement and reducing it to a single statement. He will never be forgiven.

Do you understand that? It is an emphatic phrasing that the Lord employs.

Another problem with your interpretation, and correct me if I am wrong, but Catholics say that purgatory is not punishment, or forgiveness, but cleansing.

Jesus is clearly talking about forgiveness in Mt 12, so even if purgatory were true, He cannot be talking about purgatory, because purgatory is a cleansing, not forgiveness.

 

[uther]

Here’s a link with a number of statements from prominent Protestants on 1 Cor. 3:15. This Rock magazine from November 1997.

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

 

[sandusky]

uther:

Here’s a link with a number of statements from prominent Protestants on 1 Cor. 3:15. This Rock magazine from November 1997.

You are deceitful; right off the bat you speak in half-truths. The only one of the people listed that talks about 1 Cor 3:15 is MacArthur, and if you would take off the Rome-colored glass, you would read that he is speaking figuratively. I know John, and he does not believe in purgatory. His is critical of Catholic theology, and Catholicism as a system in general; as a matter of fact, I hear that Karl Keating has attacked him in his latest newsletter for his statements about JPII and the Church.

What This Rock has done, is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do in The Watchtower Magazine. They quote mainstream Christians, out of context, to support their unsupportable views. It is trickery, pure and simple, and shows contempt for their gullible readership.

Unfortunately for you, I know about each of those quoted.

C.S. Lewis was a teacher of Medieval Literature; he was not a theologian, by his own admission. He was a great thinker, and writer in a genre called “popular theology,” but he was not a theologian, and notice as you read his statements that he is musing. He offers no support for his statements. Again, he was not a theologian.

Moreland’s quote is too short, and I would bet, that if read in context, it would not be the support that you suppose it is.

J. Vernon McGee is clearly not talking about purgatory, but the bema judgment, something you probably know nothing about. He did not believe in purgatory, but rather believed in the total, finished, accomplished work of Christ on the Cross. He had a great love for Christ, and rejected purgatory out of hand.

Clark Pinnock is quoted from a book called Four Views on Hell. I don’t know which of the four views this is that is quoted, however, I would bet my last dollar that it is the view that most closely aligns with the RCC. Typical Watchtower journalism.

In addition, Pinnock is an extremely liberal theologian who espouses inclusivism, and he is one of the major voices in a group of theologians espousing what they call “open theism.” They deny the sovereignty of God, and maintain that God does not have an exhaustive knowledge of the future, and who knows what else, I haven’t had much time to devote to reading him. He is clearly someone I would never quote in support of anything.

As Romes, Pinnock’s views are dangerous as far as I am concerned.

I am certain, that for the most part you are ignorant of what I have said, so I really don’t blame you. The everyday protestant who comes to this forum, “seeking the truth,” will probably be persuaded by the quotations on that link.

I am disgusted at the dishonesty the publication displays. Thanks, you validate my understanding of the dangers of encountered here.

 

[On_my_way]

Sandusky has anyone on these forums called you ignorant? Then what gives you the right to call uther ignorant? Sounds to me like you think that you are better than any of us Catholics.

You sound like this person from another forum? He is just as arrogant as you are. Look i’ve read a lot of your post and you seem to be very knowledgeable, but when you come out and call someone ignorant then thats when the line should be drawn. If you want people to respect your views then you should show some yourself.

BTW, I think most of the posters here have been pretty charitable, you need to take it easy. You don’t believe in purgatory then leave it alone. If you want people to read thing in context, then maybe you should do the same.