Purgatory

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On my way:
Like scylla said we can go back and forth and we still won’t agree on Purgatory. If you read a passage from the Bible and interpret the way you understand it, it will be different from the way the Church will interpret it. That’s the good thing about being Catholic, the Church protects Sacred Scripture from being misinterpreted. Since the Catholic Church put the Bible together, it will stand as the sole authentic moral and theological authority, when it comes to interpreting Sacred Scripture.

I know you will disagree with me, but that’s the good thing about the human race, our differences. I’ve read all the other passeges and told myself that it I don’t need to refute them, because it would take forever to make you realize that Purgatory exsist and I can’t change your mind, only you can do that.

You said that your soul has been cleansed. When you use the word 'has" you are speaking in a past tense form. Yes your soul has been cleansed but do you keep it cleansed? I was baptized and I go to confession, but I do make mistakes. Do you keep your soul clean all the time, Or is it OSAS?
You are right, we will just go back and forth. I will finish my comments on this thread by encouraging you to study more of the nature and purpose of Christ’s perfect sacrifice.
 
I agree that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, when you get a chance please look at the links I posted and what do you think of my questions?

The reason I stated going back and forth is you were trying to have us address scripture that was talking about forgiveness of sin, not the result of sin, the stain of sin.

What did you think of 2 Sam 12:14?

So do you believe in Once saved always saved. Once you are saved, your sin doesn’t matter at all?

We can go back and forth on scripture verses, but I don’t see any problem with Purgatory in any way, so can you explain a little more?

God Bless
Scylla
 
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sandusky:
You are right, we will just go back and forth. I will finish my comments on this thread by encouraging you to study more of the nature and purpose of Christ’s perfect sacrifice.
There is no reason for you to encourage me to study the nature and purpose of the perfect sacrifice, because I allready understand it. Maybe you should study more on Purgatory, because you have not proven that Purgatory does not exsist.
 
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Genesis315:
I don’t see why Purgatory has to be separated from Christ’s sacrafice. The purging of Purgatory is possible BECAUSE of Christ. It’s not in competition with Him.
With respect, purgatory is in competition with Him.

He came to save His people from their sins. What does that mean? They will not sin anymore? No. He came to save them from the penalty that will be exacted for those who do not believe. What is that penalty? The wrath of God; He came to save us from [the wrath] of God.

The scripture says that He paid the penalty in full; a final purgation is not necessary; His death leaves no basis for purgatory.

Purgatory says that He did not pay the penalty in full; His sacrifice was not sufficient; therefore, God created this place/time for a final purgation of sins.

I see that at best as competition with the cross, and, at worst, as an affront to it.
 
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sandusky:
I see that at best as competition with the cross, and, at worst, as an affront to it.
Sandusky, are you completely ready for heaven? Are you perfect already?
 
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scylla:
I agree that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, when you get a chance please look at the links I posted and what do you think of my questions?
scylla, I have printed the entire page of the link you provided, and I will read it over. I’ll read and consider your questions as well. Give me a little time.
 
Let’s see. Since I acknowledge that he died for my sins then I am clean. If I slip into darkness and sin, let’s say cheat on my wife, I am forgiven of that sin? How is that possible? How much times does he have to die when we all know that we are not perfect and we all slip into darkness. Regardless if the sin is venial or mortal, we all sin, even you(sandusky) why because we are human. For some strange reason you think it is that easy to get into heaven, well it’s not. For even St. paul said that he is not assured of a place in Heaven. So what makes you think that you are? Remember you said, “your soul has been cleansed.”

“HAS, is the operative word!” Noone is assured of a place in heaven.
 
Your right Sandusky, about your sins being forgiven. But consider this, imagine you spilled some milk, are you forgiven yes. But you still have to clean it up. You say there is no purgatory, you contradict yourself when you clean up the milk. The church’s teaching on Purgatory is reflected in nature. You live the church’s teaching on Purgatory every day of your life.
 
On my way:
Let’s see. Since I acknowledge that he died for my sins then I am clean. If I slip into darkness and sin, let’s say cheat on my wife, I am forgiven of that sin? How is that possible? How much times does he have to die when we all know that we are not perfect and we all slip into darkness. Regardless if the sin is venial or mortal, we all sin, even you(sandusky) why because we are human. For some strange reason you think it is that easy to get into heaven, well it’s not. For even St. paul said that he is not assured of a place in Heaven. So what makes you think that you are? Remember you said, “your soul has been cleansed.”

“HAS, is the operative word!” Noone is assured of a place in heaven.
Just so we’re clear, if you cheat on your wife (a mortal sin) and don’t repent, confess and receive absolution before you die, you will go to hell, not purgatory. Purgatory is only for those who are already saved and on their way to heaven. They just stop off for a bit of dusting and cleaning before entering the presence of God.

Purgatory is not for the forgiveness of sins. Those who enter purgatory are already forgiven. Purgatory just purges us of any lingering attachment or attraction to sin that we still have. I don’t know of anyone, Catholic or Protestant, who doesn’t have some lingering attraction to sin.
Your brother in Christ,
Paul
 
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PaulDupre:
Just so we’re clear, if you cheat on your wife (a mortal sin) and don’t repent, confess and receive absolution before you die, you will go to hell, not purgatory. Purgatory is only for those who are already saved and on their way to heaven. They just stop off for a bit of dusting and cleaning before entering the presence of God.

Purgatory is not for the forgiveness of sins. Those who enter purgatory are already forgiven. Purgatory just purges us of any lingering attachment or attraction to sin that we still have. I don’t know of anyone, Catholic or Protestant, who doesn’t have some lingering attraction to sin.
Your brother in Christ,
Paul
Thank you for the explination. I understand what you are saying. You should have addressed your post to sandusky. He is the one who thinks that as long as you believe then you are going to heaven. I do believe that everyone of us needs to be cleansed when or after we die. I’m not the one who believes in OSAS.

But thanks again.
 
Scylla,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

I read the page you linked on penance, purgatory, and indulgences. With all respect, those are Catholic notions; I truly find no basis for them in Scripture. Under Ott’s definition, I can see how the Scriptures you cited could be construed as pertaining to penance and purgatory, but again, Ott’s definition is Catholic. Penance is an act by someone to make restitution to another for some wrong committed. This is unbiblical, because Scripture is clear that nothing that we can do to appease God is acceptable to Him.

Ott also says that trials of life are penance that are to be patiently endured. James says that we are to count a trial as a joy, as God’s ultimate purpose for sending it to us is to produce a more steadfast faith (Jas 1:2,3).

You asked what I thought of 2 Sam 2:14. As a consequence of David’s sin, the Lord took his son. That is unfortunate, but I do not see penance in that.

This writer of the paper also cites Adam and Eve’s exclusion from the garden as penance; it was punishment. He also cites wilderness wanderings of the Israel as penance; it too was punishment. He also lists sickness and death from taking Communion unworthily in 1 Cor 11:31; that is chastening; the Greek word used there literally literally, to train, to chasten, to correct a child (cf 2 Sam 7:14; Ps 94:12; Heb 12:7-10; Rev 3:19), it is done out of God’s love, not His wrath.

The writer quotes C.S. Lewis as subscribing to purgatory; If Paul were to have said that, then I would believe it; Lewis, however, does not sway me.

Also, part of the title of the article is “Saved As By Fire.” In that passage of Scripture, it is not the man who is tried by fire, but his works (1 Cor 3:13, 15). I see no connection between those verses and purgatory.

You asked if I believed in Once Saved Always Saved, and if my sin doesn’t matter at all. I do believe in Once Saved Always Saved, and yes our sin matters, but Christ has taken care of the sin issue. If you are asking if I may sin with impunity, the answer is no, I may not.
 
On My Way:
Let’s see. Since I acknowledge that he died for my sins then I am clean. If I slip into darkness and sin, let’s say cheat on my wife, I am forgiven of that sin? How is that possible? How much times does he have to die when we all know that we are not perfect and we all slip into darkness. Regardless if the sin is venial or mortal, we all sin, even you(sandusky) why because we are human. For some strange reason you think it is that easy to get into heaven, well it’s not. For even St. paul said that he is not assured of a place in Heaven. So what makes you think that you are? Remember you said, “your soul has been cleansed.”
Hey, On My Way.

Hypotheticals are a waste of time.

Yes, even I sin; yes it is because I am still in the flesh. Inasmuch as the ability to get into heaven resides with God, it is as easy for the believer as He makes it; be that as it may, the believer is assured by God that he is saved. I’m not sure what you are talking about Paul not being assured a place in heaven, give me the verse. Paul is very confident about his place in heaven.

John says that He (Christ) has cleansed from all unrighteousness, in 1 Jn 1:7; Paul also says it in Titus 2:14. I believe what John and Paul say.

Also, you refer to venial, and mortal sin. The Bible makes no such distinction.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death*…*

According to God, all sin is mortal.
 
You have contradicted yourself with your last post.

“Penance is an act by someone to make restitution to another for some wrong commited.” Your statement. Then you go on and say that in 2 Sam 2:14 you see no penance. He (David) did wrong to someone (God) and made restitution to God for the wrong he commited. How is that not penance according to your definition?

Please take your time answering this one.
 
Don’t ask me to use Scripture because you are going to read it and interpert it the way that you want to. Personal interpretation is what caused the reformation and all these different denomenations. Since you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the authentic moral and theological authority and that it trys to protect it(Scripture) from misinterpretation, why would I even bother to post passeges. You’ll just say thats not what it says. Then again do you speak Latin, Greek and other languages that the Bible was/is written in?
 
So the issue then isn’t purgatory you have a problem with as you believe that Jesus cleanses us, just like we do. We just call it purgatory, since you do not see that in the Bible I can understand why you don’t subscribe to the belief. Purgatory fits in perfectly with Jesus cleansing us from all sin, just not your understanding of this.
The real issue then is you looking for all beliefs from your interpretation of the Bible. There is absolutely no way I am going to convince you of our beliefs if we look at things by your interpretation of the Bible. There is absolutely nothing unscriptural about Purgatory, and verses like that above of Samuel illustrate it without straining to make a new understanding.
So please try to understand Catholics do not base their beliefs off of the Bible but rather will check them against Scripture to make sure it is sound doctrine. Lemme explain, so no one is misunderstanding me.
Catholicism can’t base it’s beliefs on only scripture as it existed before the Bible existed. The understanding of beliefs was understood by the apostles, which provides the foundation of the faith. Things like prayers for the dead, salvation, the Eucharist, the divinity of Jesus, etc.
It is not like the Catholic Church invented the Trinity, yet it was a development of doctrine which was defined to ensure sound doctrine. Even though it was defined there are still versions of things like versions of Arianism out there. Same way with Purgatory, it is understood and later defined to ensure sound doctrine as a result of the reformers.

So we should look and see where do the foundations for our belief come from. Does it come from just scripture? or from just scripture with some history, but based off a reformers understanding, or from the understanding of salvation from the Apostles, historically verified and checked against scripture?

There are many other scenarios I can come up with from above depending on the faith tradition.
Evangelicals have a different faith tradition than Baptists, than Methodists, than Presbyterians.

Or maybe I am just going off on a tangent, but this is to illustrate why need to examine things carefully.

God Bless
Scylla
 
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bones_IV:
Your right Sandusky, about your sins being forgiven. But consider this, imagine you spilled some milk, are you forgiven yes. But you still have to clean it up. You say there is no purgatory, you contradict yourself when you clean up the milk. The church’s teaching on Purgatory is reflected in nature. You live the church’s teaching on Purgatory every day of your life.
Abrahams Bosom refering to the rich man and Lazurus. there is no purgatrory. When Christ died and finished the work that was put away.
(Hebrews 9:27) “It is appointed unto man once to die, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.
 
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bones_IV:
No one, not even if you were slightly defiled, could enter one step into the temple, not even the outer region. With this in mind, imagine how much more the case in heaven, in which the saints and angels are in the presence of God.
Under the law, no unclean person could enter the temple, to which the immediate Protestant response is
“Clearly no one is justified before God by the law… Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Galatians 3:11, 13)
“there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:1-2)
and many other verses besides, all amounting to the same thing: Christ rendered gradual purgation unnecessary by providing instantaneous purgation.

That said, I think that you might have more success approaching Protestants over the yawning gulf which Purgatory fills. Without a Purgatory, there is a zero-thickness line between eternal bliss in Heaven and eternal damnation in Hell. Immediately on one side of that line, you’re saved forever; immediately on the other, damned forever for the commission of what must be the most minor of all crimes. That cannot be just.
 
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jhardee:
Abrahams Bosom refering to the rich man and Lazurus. there is no purgatrory. When Christ died and finished the work that was put away.
(Hebrews 9:27) “It is appointed unto man once to die, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.
Purgatory is included in the judgement after we die.

Hebrews 9:23-28
23 Thus is was necessary for the heavenly thingsto be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now toappear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgement, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not dealwith sin but save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
 
Verse 23 seems to be refering to the heavenly sanctuary, like the Mosiac sanctuary, also needs purification. However the purification of heavenly things is nonsense. There are folks who think that this text might be refering to the Church on earth, imperfect like the Church in heaven, needs purification. However others see it as the “Church in heaven, the Church Triumphant, in the sense that it has to *purify sinners so as to be able to recieve them into its bosom *and destroy the roots of sinners as as to be able to recieve them into its bosom and destroy the roots of evil.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra Gentiles, IV, 91, 6, says “To that [the beautific] vision no rational creature can be elevated unless it be thoroughly and entirely purified…]. But it does not at times happen that such purification is not entirely perfected in this life; one remains a debtor for the punishment…]. Nevertheless, he is not entirely cut off from the reward, because such things can happen without mortal sin, which alone takes away the charity to which the reward of eternal life is due …]. They must, then, be purged after this life before they achieve the final reward.”
Verse 24 refers to the glorious ascension into heaven of Jesus Christ himself who intercedes for our every need and serves as our advocate in the presence of God the Father (cf. Heb4:14, 7:25; 8:1; 9:11-12).
Verses 25-26 talk about the sacrifices of the Old covenant and the sacrifice of Christ. “There are numerous points of contact and a degree of continuity, fo the former are a foreshadowing of the latter.” However there are differences. The sacrifices of the Mosiac Law were multiple, Christ’s sacrifice was unique, the Mosiac sacrifices did not really have the power to forgive sins, Christ’s sacrifice does; the Mosiac ones were done with the blood of animals, Christ shed his own blood; the Mosiac ones belong to the time of waiting and preparation, Christ’s sacrifice marks the beginning of “the fulness of time” (cf. Mt 13:40-49; 24:3; 28:20; 1 Cor10:11; Gal 4:4; Eph 1:10).
Think about this. If Christ’s sacrific consists essentially in his passion, and if the passion did nto have the power to forgive all past, present and future sins, it would have had to be repeated, but that would be absurd, for Christ could die only once; therefore, Christ’s sacrifice, offered once and for all, is infinitely efficacious.
Sandusky, consider the sacrifice of the Holy Mass. The celebration of the Mass is not at odds therefore with the efficacy and unicity of the sacrifice of Christ, because the Mass is not a new sacrifice involving the shedding of blood, a numerical repetition of the sacrifice of the Cross: it is an unbloody renewal of that sacrifice, to apply its infinite efficacy. The Council of Trent says in Missae sacrificio chapter 2 “It is one and the same victim–he who makes the offering through the ministry of priests and he who then offered himself of the Cross; the only differenc is in the manner of the offering.” Given that the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary was a bloody sacrifice, the sacrifice of the Mass is an unbloody sacrifice. Taking a look at Pius XII’s Mediator Dei “a commerative showing forth of the death which took place in reality on Calvary is repeated in each Mass, because by distinct representatives Christ Jesus is signified and shown forth in that state of the victim.” The Mass, then get its efficacy from Christ’s death on the cross, that sacrifice therefore has connection with time and space.

Verses 27-28 cover three basic truths of Christian belief about the last things.
  1. The immutable decree of death
  2. The fact that there is *judgement *after death.
  3. The second coming of Christ in glory.
“Not to deal with sin”: this phrase ,means that the second coming of Christ has to do with salvation, that is, glory, to those who place their hope in him. The purpose of the second coming of Christ therefore doesn’t mean redeeming man from sin. He will come not as Redeemer but as the Judge of all. His coming “is appointed”: it is as necessary as death and judgement.
Verses 27-28 are an implicit exhortation to watchfullness. (cf. also 1 Cor 7:29, Sir 14:12; and Lumen gentium, 48). It is thus not clear whether St. Paul in these verses is refering to particular judgement or general judgement. In any event, we must remember that the existance of a general judgement does not conflict with the certainty that there is a particular judgement, for the Church, in line with Sacred Scripture, although it awaits the glorious revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ on the last day, sees that event as distinct from and serarate in time for the judgement which every individual will underdo immediately after his death (cf. Letter on Eschatology, op. cit.). Hint, hint purgatory.
 
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