Purgatory

[Tigerhawk]

Sandusky,

Your responses are making my dizzy. :whacky:

sandusky:

In that passage of Scripture, it is not the man who is tried by fire, but his works (1 Cor 3:13, 15). I see no connection between those verses and purgatory.

Keep reading 1 Corinthians 3:15 “…He himself will be saved, but only as one fleeing through fire.”

I can’t say that I have personally run through fire, but I imagine it would feel like a whole lot more than my works being tested.

sandusky:

If you are asking if I may sin with impunity, the answer is no, I may not.

Why not? This does not make sense to me. If there is no consequence for sin, why should I avoid sin in the first place?

 

[Bishopite]

Purgatory is simply the act of our final sanctification. Even in Protestant theology which separtates justification and sanctification we need to give up our lives to Christ; that’s sanctification. So if we don’t fully give our lives to Christ in every area of our lives then there has to be a process by which we are “purged” of those sins that we didn’t fully give to Christ. Rev 21:27 says no unclean thing shall enter in heaven so we have to be completely pure without a trace of sin. Heb 10:10-14 says to strive for holiness and vs 14 says: strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Catholic theology says that justification and sanctification are intertwined, fluid and both process us toward eternal life and that we are being justified as we are being sanctified; this isn’t a mechanical formula by which everyone is judged. God might require some to do more since they have had more given to them (Luke 12:48) but everyone has to strive for holiness and if they aren’t completely holy upon death God’s burning love for them burns away their sin 1 Cor 3:15. All those who go to purgatory WILL and ARE saved.

 

[PaulDupre]

On my way:

Thank you for the explination. I understand what you are saying. You should have addressed your post to sandusky. He is the one who thinks that as long as you believe then you are going to heaven. I do believe that everyone of us needs to be cleansed when or after we die. I’m not the one who believes in OSAS.

But thanks again.

Yeah, sorry. I hit the wrong link.
Paul

 

[sandusky]

On my way:

You have contradicted yourself with your last post.

“Penance is an act by someone to make restitution to another for some wrong commited.” Your statement. Then you go on and say that in 2 Sam 2:14 you see no penance. He (David) did wrong to someone (God) and made restitution to God for the wrong he commited. How is that not penance according to your definition?

Please take your time answering this one.

How did David make restitution?

 

[sandusky]

Mystophilus:

Without a Purgatory, there is a zero-thickness line between eternal bliss in Heaven and eternal damnation in Hell. Immediately on one side of that line, you’re saved forever; immediately on the other, damned forever for the commission of what must be the most minor of all crimes. That cannot be just.

I am interested in why you believe that cannot be?

 

[sandusky]

Tigerhawk:

Sandusky,

Your responses are making my dizzy. :whacky:

Keep reading 1 Corinthians 3:15 “…He himself will be saved, but only as one fleeing through fire.”

I can’t say that I have personally run through fire, but I imagine it would feel like a whole lot more than my works being tested.

Surely you read in the verses preceding v15 that it is the WORKS that are tested? Do you read that?

*He…will be saved…but only *AS one fleeing through fire. The key word is AS. That indicates a figure of speech known as a simile, which can also be indicated by the use of the word LIKE. So His works are burned, and because they are burned and he is saved it is AS through fire. He does not go through fire, only the works do.

Tigerhawk:

Why not? This does not make sense to me. If there is no consequence for sin, why should I avoid sin in the first place?

I don’t know why you should.

But I can tell you why I do.

It is because I love Christ so much for what He has done for me, that I would never do anything that would intentionally cause Him pain, or bring shame upon Him. He is more important to me than anything. That is why I avoid sin.

Also, I have never said that there is no consequence for sin in a believer’s life. There is always consequence, chastisement, discipline, done from God’s love.

However, there is no longer the fear of punishment. Christ paid that in full on the Cross.

 

[Mystophilus]

sandusky:

I am interested in why you believe that cannot be?

The problem lies in the spectrum of offending. There are bad people, and there are people who take a good shot at being genuinely evil. You can be selfish, you can be nasty, or you can be a mass-murdering child-abuser, and there is a vast difference between those. If there is a zero-thickness line between saved and damned, it means that the difference in the degree of punishment in that zone, across that line, is disproportionate to the difference in the degree of offending. While this could be remedied by setting the entry requirements for Hell very ‘high’, so that only true villains get in, that would leave you with a lot of pettily vicious people in Heaven.

It’s similar to the ‘died in sin’ idea: You were a murderer, but you repented on your deathbed, and so you are saved. He was a rapist, and the police shot him dead before he could repent, and so he goes to Hell. The difference is too sudden, too absolute.

 

[sandusky]

Mystophilus:

The problem lies in the spectrum of offending. There are bad people, and there are people who take a good shot at being genuinely evil. You can be selfish, you can be nasty, or you can be a mass-murdering child-abuser, and there is a vast difference between those. If there is a zero-thickness line between saved and damned, it means that the difference in the degree of punishment in that zone, across that line, is disproportionate to the difference in the degree of offending. While this could be remedied by setting the entry requirements for Hell very ‘high’, so that only true villains get in, that would leave you with a lot of pettily vicious people in Heaven.

It’s similar to the ‘died in sin’ idea: You were a murderer, but you repented on your deathbed, and so you are saved. He was a rapist, and the police shot him dead before he could repent, and so he goes to Hell. The difference is too sudden, too absolute.

Are you irritated by this, distressed by this, or ambivalent about it, and reject any idea of punishment?

 

[Mystophilus]

sandusky:

Are you irritated by this, distressed by this, or ambivalent about it, and reject any idea of punishment?

Now that is a new question!

I tend not to be irritated or distressed by ideas. If I have any emotional reaction to them it is usually interest, surprise, amusement or some combination of those. I do, however, sometimes become irritated, distressed or disappointed by the actions in which people engage as a result of their foolish ideas, most often with respect to politicians.

Regarding punishment, I see no need for it in this case. What purpose would be served by condemning even the most wicked to suffer? What good would this produce?

For the living, punishment can be useful as a tool of behavioural correction, but only if applied properly.

 

[sandusky]

Mystophilus:

Regarding punishment, I see no need for it in this case. What purpose would be served by condemning even the most wicked to suffer? What good would this produce?

From God’s point of view, condemning the wicked has nothing to do with producing goodness. It’s pure punishment.

Does that cause irritation, distress, or ambivalence?

 

[Mystophilus]

sandusky:

From God’s point of view, condemning the wicked has nothing to do with producing goodness. It’s pure punishment.

Does that cause irritation, distress, or ambivalence?

Scepticism: why do you assume that you know God’s intention? Do you have some window into God’s mind which the rest of us should know about?

 

[sandusky]

Mystophilus:

Scepticism: why do you assume that you know God’s intention? Do you have some window into God’s mind which the rest of us should know about?

With respect to His dealings with the wicked, I don’t assume anything; I know His intention. It is to destroy them. The window is His revelation, and with that, He says that we have His mind.

Of what are you skeptical? That God will punish the wicked? That God exists? That we can know any intention of God? That God has revealed anything?

Of what are you skeptical?

 

[jhardee]

bones_IV:

Purgatory is included in the judgement after we die.

Hebrews 9:23-28
23 Thus is was necessary for the heavenly thingsto be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now toappear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgement, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not dealwith sin but save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

You forgot about Hebrews 9:22 the blood (Christ’s Blood) remission of sins…

 

[On_my_way]

sandusky:

How did David make restitution?

Please read 2 Sam 12:13-25. Remember read all of it, not just what parts you believe in. The whole passege tells the story not just one part of it.

 

[E.E.N.S]

jhardee:

Abrahams Bosom refering to the rich man and Lazurus. there is no purgatrory. When Christ died and finished the work that was put away.
(Hebrews 9:27) “It is appointed unto man once to die, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.

I don’t think you understand purgatory.

**1031 **The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

**1472 **To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

 

[Vincent1560]

Purgatory is a fascinating theological question. And I have to confess I am a bit more agnostic on this point than many of my fellow evangelicals. I haven’t seen anything that would necessarily contradict a certain conception of it, although my conception of it (provided it exists) is a bit different from what I understand the Catholic concept to be. I think of it as being the means by which those who haven’t been given the ability through circumstance or ignorance to explicity accept or reject Christ are given a final chance. The reason I think this is due to Romans 2: 14-16

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Since the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ I do believe everyone wether here or in a “purgatory” must either accept or reject Him. I have very conflicted feelings about purgatory.

 

[Vincent1560]

sandusky:

Thank you. You and I both understand the notion of purgatory, but, between us, only I understand God’s forgiveness.

2 Samuel 12:13
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.

Psalm 103:12
12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Isaiah 38:17
*17 “Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back. *

Isaiah 43:25
*25 “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins. *

Zechariah 3:9
9 ‘For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Hebrews 9:26
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

It is absolute forgiveness, not partial. Christ is absolute satisfaction, not partial.

I am convinced (I say this in humility), that if you think that you are going to pay a penalty for sin at the time of your death, you will. There is only place that the Bible states that punishment occurs.

Think about it.

I do agree with this, and think a retributive form of purgatory would contradict the aforementioned scriptures. If God chooses in his mercy not to remember our sins, why would he punish us for them in a purgatory?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Vincent1560:

I do agree with this, and think a retributive form of purgatory would contradict the aforementioned scriptures. If God chooses in his mercy not to remember our sins, why would he punish us for them in a purgatory?

Read post #55. (Thanks for joining this thread Vincent)

 

[Vincent1560]

PaulDupre:

Just so we’re clear, if you cheat on your wife (a mortal sin) and don’t repent, confess and receive absolution before you die, you will go to hell, not purgatory. Purgatory is only for those who are already saved and on their way to heaven. They just stop off for a bit of dusting and cleaning before entering the presence of God.

Purgatory is not for the forgiveness of sins. Those who enter purgatory are already forgiven. Purgatory just purges us of any lingering attachment or attraction to sin that we still have. I don’t know of anyone, Catholic or Protestant, who doesn’t have some lingering attraction to sin.
Your brother in Christ,
Paul

I disagree with the 1st paragraph, but am somewhat open to the possibility of the second.

 

[E.E.N.S]

There is some good information on purgatory at this link

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html