Purgatory

[CanoeCamper55]

What person in the history of the Church (after 202 AD) do you admire, respect, and agree with? Is there someone (in addition to Jesus and the apostles) that you want to imitate? I’ll suggest just a few good role models:

St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. Francis of Assisi
Pope John Paul the Great

It would be very interesting to find out if that admired person prayed for the dead. I haven’t done the research, but I’ll guess that all the great saints prayed for the dead. It would be wise to follow their example, rather than to try to figure it all out alone.

You’re in my prayers this weekend.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

CanoeCamper55:

What person in the history of the Church (after 202 AD) do you admire, respect, and agree with? Is there someone (in addition to Jesus and the apostles) that you want to imitate? I’ll suggest just a few good role models:

St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. Francis of Assisi
Pope John Paul the Great

It would be very interesting to find out if that admired person prayed for the dead. I haven’t done the research, but I’ll guess that all the great saints prayed for the dead. It would be wise to follow their example, rather than to try to figure it all out alone.

You’re in my prayers this weekend.

Canoe:

Moses wasn’t allowed to see the Face of G-d, because no man could see the Face of G-d and live. That’s why God covered his eyes and only allowed Him to see His back.

Seeing the Face of G-d was the OT equivalent of the Beatific Vision. The New Covenant allows us to see the Beatific Vision, but we still need preparation. That’s what Purgatory is. As Fr. Fessio explained to me, the Dogma is self-evident.

After that explanation. I wouldn’t belabor the point too much, because the second anyone has to admit that the Catholic Church is correct about Purgatory being a state where we are prepared for the Beatific Vision, he has to admit that the Catholic Church is right in a whole lot of other areas, too. Once he does that, he has to begin submitting to the Teaching Authority of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and begin obeying the Pope and the Bishops who are under him.

On follows the other as the night follows day, and just about every Protestant knows that. That’s one reason Protestants resist these doctrines with so much vim and vigor, as if their spiritual lives depended on it.

That’s why I would drop the issue and try to pray with your correspondent. He’s heard the truth from a a couple of people. But he needs to know that we care about him and the things that matter to him.

You can’t really do that in a polemic or theological debate.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Churchmouse]

CanoeCamper55:

What person in the history of the Church (after 202 AD) do you admire, respect, and agree with? Is there someone (in addition to Jesus and the apostles) that you want to imitate? I’ll suggest just a few good role models:

St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. Francis of Assisi
Pope John Paul the Great

The question isn’t who I agree with, but truth verses fiction. First of all, these men weren’t infallible, neither were they men who wrote God-breathed Scripture. I can find men in Church history I admire, but “admiration” doesn’t trump truth and “admiration” doesn’t mean I would agree with everything they said or taught. Secondly, instead of veering and making this a question of who I agree with, interact with my responses. You posted a list of so-called “historical facts” and, as you can see, your “facts” didn’t hold water. Instead of interacting with the response, you ignore it and make it an issue of who I do or don’t admire.

It would be very interesting to find out if that admired person prayed for the dead. I haven’t done the research, but I’ll guess that all the great saints prayed for the dead. It would be wise to follow their example, rather than to try to figure it all out alone.

Again, prayer for the dead doesn’t translate into a belief in purgatory, especially in light of the “refrigerium.” It seems that no matter how hard I stress this point, it is ignored in favor of making it purgatorial. Again, if someone studied these things unbiasedly, they walk away knowing that these “prayers for the dead” weren’t purgatorial in the least.

You’re in my prayers this weekend.

As you are in mine.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

Traditional Ang:

Canoe:
After that explanation. I wouldn’t belabor the point too much, because the second anyone has to admit that the Catholic Church is correct about Purgatory being a state where we are prepared for the Beatific Vision, he has to admit that the Catholic Church is right in a whole lot of other areas, too. Once he does that, he has to begin submitting to the Teaching Authority of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and begin obeying the Pope and the Bishops who are under him.

You know, it works in reverse as well. The second the Catholic realizes that purgatory is a later addition, one which wasn’t believed by the early church, then one comes to the realization that Rome can be wrong about other things as well. Again, if it wasn’t taught, it wasn’t taught regardless of what Popes or Councils say. Are you thinking this one through?

On follows the other as the night follows day, and just about every Protestant knows that. That’s one reason Protestants resist these doctrines with so much vim and vigor, as if their spiritual lives depended on it.

Again, this is faulty reasoning in light that the Church didn’t teach purgatory early on. Again, are you thinking this one through?

That’s why I would drop the issue and try to pray with your correspondent. He’s heard the truth from a a couple of people. But he needs to know that we care about him and the things that matter to him.

If you are referring to me then post to me directly. No, where do you see the truth being portrayed here. Are you reading these posts? What is the basis for your determining their responses as truth? What would make what I’ve submitted an “untruth”? This is what you are assuming, correct?

You can’t really do that in a polemic or theological debate.

Caring is one thing, but slighting truth in favor of ignorance is another. Again, this translates to demeaning another (“let’s pray for this lost brother”) rather then dealing with the issue at hand.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**I dont see the need to convince non-catholics of Purgtory at this point. It is something we shall all see at the end of time. I am very glad that my faith acknowledges, believes and professes Purgatory as part of our Faith,

Its like trying to convince the OSAS that conduct and action are part of Faith, which they agree, however they also agree its not a requirement for salvation which is unbiblical . When a verse in the bible is simple and quite easy to read and interpret, If you dont partake or recieve the body and blood of Chirst then you have no life in you and these new sects twist and distort its meaning this then becomes a sin. Yet the conversation becomes circular, that no matter what verse you show them they twist and distort it to fit there way of life as to not have to abide by God commandments and or Laws. The Catholic Church is the first Church and will be remain the Universal Church.**

Sara

 

[sara888]

**“Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” [sin is lawlessness and lawlessness is sin] Mt. 7:22,23

By their fruits [works of lawlessness, wickedness] you will recognize them!**

Sara

 

[CanoeCamper55]

I apologize to those persons who may think I am ignoring them. My preferred approah is not to argue or debate about someone’s opinions about the faith, but share what I believe is true. That style may be frustrating to those who like to have a direct response to their personal interpretation of Scripture and/or the ECF. Just because someone asks a question, poses an idea, or criticizes my idea, that does not imply that I am obligated to answer back. If I do not respond to you directly, please do not take it personally…it’s just that I don’t like to argue.

 

[Churchmouse]

I dont see the need to convince non-catholics of Purgtory at this point. It is something we shall all see at the end of time. I am very glad that my faith acknowledges, believes and professes Purgatory as part of our Faith,

And I’m happy that no such thing exists as evidenced by its absence from the earliest church.

Its like trying to convince the OSAS that conduct and action are part of Faith, which they agree, however they also agree its not a requirement for salvation which is unbiblical . When a verse in the bible is simple and quite easy to read and interpret, If you dont partake or recieve the body and blood of Chirst then you have no life in you and these new sects twist and distort its meaning this then becomes a sin. Yet the conversation becomes circular, that no matter what verse you show them they twist and distort it to fit there way of life as to not have to abide by God commandments and or Laws. The Catholic Church is the first Church and will be remain the Universal Church.

Sara, once again, it goes to show how folks on this site don’t know much about OSAS. The tenet makes no claim that conduct and action are not a requirement, it is. However, we believe that this is a part of sanctification which, of course, is done by God. We don’t believe that it is prerequisite for salvation, but a by-product of salvation. That is all I will say about the subject. I want to continue on this topic. Hopefully, folks will see that purgatory is a man-made doctrine not held to by the earliest church. I believe that point is being made loud and clear.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

**“Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” [sin is lawlessness and lawlessness is sin]
Mt. 7:22,23

By their fruits [works of lawlessness, wickedness] you will recognize them!**

And your point is???

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Hopefully, folks will see that purgatory is a man-made doctrine not held to by the earliest church. I believe that point is being made loud and clear.

I am sorry you feel that way, CM, but it is only in your own mind.

 

[Churchmouse]

CanoeCamper55:

I apologize to those persons who may think I am ignoring them. My preferred approah is not to argue or debate about someone’s opinions about the faith, but share what I believe is true. That style may be frustrating to those who like to have a direct response to their personal interpretation of Scripture and/or the ECF. Just because someone asks a question, poses an idea, or criticizes my idea, that does not imply that I am obligated to answer back. If I do not respond to you directly, please do not take it personally…it’s just that I don’t like to argue.

CC,

Let’s hope that none here are arguing. If that were the case, we should renege our memberships here immediately. I hope you don’t think this is as personal as you seem to be stating here. Yes, you should share what you believe to be true, but at least give us the reasons why you would uphold a belief which has no basis in the earliest church. I don’t like to argue myself although I have been portrayed by some to do as such, no doubt to discredit me and what I say in any way possible. Yet, if someone is going to post why purgatory is logical, I will take the negative because I don’t want folks believing in a doctrine which wasn’t a part of the Apostolic deposit. It isn’t arguing, it is a sincere adherence to what Paul stated in Galatians 1:8-9. If it isn’t the gospel preached by the Apostles, let it be accursed.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**
Churchmouse said:
**Sara, once again, it goes to show how folks on this site don’t know much about OSAS. The tenet makes no claim that conduct and action are not a requirement, it is. However, we believe that this is a part of sanctification which, of course, is done by God. We don’t believe that it is prerequisite for salvation,

Churchmouse,
Most folks on this site know more than you would like to admit with regard to the OSAS doctrine, The tenet claims that conduct and action have nothing to do with Salvation, you can try to twist your explanation with semantics, however, the OSAS doctrine believe’s and profess that Chirst died for their past, present and future sins, They feel they are part of the saved/elect group that have a guranteed ticket to Heaven regardless of Gods commandments.

The OSAS sect, fundies, etc, fail to define true faith in Christ and what it means to abide in him. Grace does save us, however we are judged by our actions and conduct with this great faith.

You may try to convince yourself that you agree you must keep the commandments or it has something to do with your justification, but most if not all OSAS followers believe Gods moral Laws and or Commandments have nothing to do with Salvation. I have said before it not only lacks logic its a complete distortion of scripture both OT and NT.

I will reply about the Purgatory issue for you, but I want to get the right information to answer your question.****

Sara

 

[E.E.N.S]

See how much we fuss and get nowhere about one little topic? Imagine using this method to determine which church is Christ’s Church. Really what needs to be done is to find out which church is truly Christ’s Church and start from there.

How many churches are even applying for the position? Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon(?)…? We know there are some stipulations involved to be Christ’s Church; it must be One, it must be Holy, it must be Catholic (Universal), and it must be Apostolic. (Given the Great Apostacy you can rule out the Apostolic stipulation for Mormons.) It would seem the two most logical choices would be either Catholic or Orthodox.

Think differently? Why?

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

I am sorry you feel that way, CM, but it is only in your own mind.

You know, you always make these remarks, but what is strangely missing is any evidence to prove differently. Not only is it only in my mind as you say, but I hold good company considering Christ, the Apostles, and the earliest church held a non-purgatorial view in their minds as well. Purgatory is the teaching of men who inflicted pagan beliefs into their theologies.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**Lactantius

In the first decade of the next century, the rhetorician and apologist Lactantius, known as the “Christian Cicero,” because of the perfection of his Latin style, wrote about purgatory while he was teaching Latin rhetoric to the Greeks of Asia Minor. He points out that although some of the just will come to God’s judgment already fully purified, others will have to undergo some purification according to the number and gravity of their sins:

“When God judges the just, he will also try them with fire. Then those who surpass the others in the weight or number of their sins will be detained by fire . . . those however whom the fullness of justice and the maturity of virtue have already ‘baked’ will not feel that fire” (The Divine Institutes, 7,21; A.D. 305).

This is perfectly in accord with what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15: "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble-each man’s work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.**

 

[Churchmouse]

**
Churchmouse said:
**Sara, once again, it goes to show how folks on this site don’t know much about OSAS. The tenet makes no claim that conduct and action are not a requirement, it is. However, we believe that this is a part of sanctification which, of course, is done by God. We don’t believe that it is prerequisite for salvation,

Churchmouse,
Most folks on this site know more than you would like to admit with regard to the OSAS doctrine, The tenet claims that conduct and action have nothing to do with Salvation, you can try to twist your explanation with semantics, however, the OSAS doctrine believe’s and profess that Chirst died for their past, present and future sins, They feel they are part of the saved/elect group that have a guranteed ticket to Heaven regardless of Gods commandments.

The OSAS sect, fundies, etc, fail to define true faith in Christ and what it means to abide in him. Grace does save us, however we are judged by our actions and conduct with this great faith.

You may try to convince yourself that you agree you must keep the commandments or it has something to do with your justification, but most if not all OSAS followers believe Gods moral Laws and or Commandments have nothing to do with Salvation. I have said before it not only lacks logic its a complete distortion of scripture both OT and NT.

I will reply about the Purgatory issue for you, but I want to get the right information to answer your question.****

Sara

No, Sara, you already revealed your understanding of OSAS and it isn’t the doctrine in the least. Secondly, note how you would rather change the subject to OSAS. I do.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

See how much we fuss and get nowhere about one little topic? Imagine using this method to determine which church is Christ’s Church. Really what needs to be done is to find out which church is truly Christ’s Church and start from there.

How many churches are even applying for the position? Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon(?)…? We know there are some stipulations involved to be Christ’s Church; it must be One, it must be Holy, it must be Catholic (Universal), and it must be Apostolic. (Given the Great Apostacy you can rule out the Apostolic stipulation for Mormons.) It would seem the two most logical choices would be either Catholic or Orthodox.

Think differently? Why?

The gospel is the gospel. Christ’s church didn’t have a purgatorial belief. It isn’t “fuss”, it is about keeping the gospel unadulterated and pure.

Peace,
CM

 

[sara888]

**

Churchmouse said:And I’m happy that no such thing exists as evidenced by its absence from the earliest church.

500: Doctrine of purgatory first preached by the Roman Catholic Church. From earliest times, the Church has rejected the idea that every Christian, upon death, immediately enters the full glory of Heaven.

1 Cor. 15:51-57 points out that “that which is corruptible (our flesh-nature) must clothe itself with incorruptibility.” Purgatory is a process of purging ourselves from what was worldly so that we can fully enter into what is eternal.

Purgatory comes from the Latin for cleansing fire. The Church teaches that when we die believing in Jesus, we come into full contact with the infinite love of God (the Beatific Vision). Because of persistent sinful habits and an insufficient desire to do penance, and now gaining an awareness of how unlike Christ we had been on Earth, we long to be purified. Purgatory is a gift from God to fulfill that longing.

The source of pain in Purgatory is our full understanding of how infinitely and powerfully loving God is and how poorly we have loved, fueled by our yearning to be united with that holy love. This is intensified by the realization that he could have expiated his sins while on Earth, through the Sacraments, prayer and good works. Church tradition describes this pain as “fire” or burning within for full contact with the love of God.**

 

[Churchmouse]

**Lactantius

In the first decade of the next century, the rhetorician and apologist Lactantius, known as the “Christian Cicero,” because of the perfection of his Latin style, wrote about purgatory while he was teaching Latin rhetoric to the Greeks of Asia Minor. He points out that although some of the just will come to God’s judgment already fully purified, others will have to undergo some purification according to the number and gravity of their sins:

“When God judges the just, he will also try them with fire. Then those who surpass the others in the weight or number of their sins will be detained by fire . . . those however whom the fullness of justice and the maturity of virtue have already ‘baked’ will not feel that fire” (The Divine Institutes, 7,21; A.D. 305).

This is perfectly in accord with what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15: "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble-each man’s work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.**

Sara, do me a favor. Give me the complete citation from Lactantius. I contend he didn’t believe in a purgatory and that you are simply citing something from a Catholic apologetic site or book. Give me the complete citation without the ellipses.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

**

Churchmouse said:And I’m happy that no such thing exists as evidenced by its absence from the earliest church.

500: Doctrine of purgatory first preached by the Roman Catholic Church. From earliest times, the Church has rejected the idea that every Christian, upon death, immediately enters the full glory of Heaven.

1 Cor. 15:51-57 points out that “that which is corruptible (our flesh-nature) must clothe itself with incorruptibility.” Purgatory is a process of purging ourselves from what was worldly so that we can fully enter into what is eternal.

Purgatory comes from the Latin for cleansing fire. The Church teaches that when we die believing in Jesus, we come into full contact with the infinite love of God (the Beatific Vision). Because of persistent sinful habits and an insufficient desire to do penance, and now gaining an awareness of how unlike Christ we had been on Earth, we long to be purified. Purgatory is a gift from God to fulfill that longing.

The source of pain in Purgatory is our full understanding of how infinitely and powerfully loving God is and how poorly we have loved, fueled by our yearning to be united with that holy love. This is intensified by the realization that he could have expiated his sins while on Earth, through the Sacraments, prayer and good works. Church tradition describes this pain as “fire” or burning within for full contact with the love of God.**

This doesn’t tell me or provide evidence that this was the belief of the earliest church or a teaching of Christ and the Apostles. All it tells me is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about a doctrine not held to by the earliest church.

Peace,
CM