Purgatory

[sara888]

**churchmouse said:No, Sara, you already revealed your understanding of OSAS and it isn’t the doctrine in the least. Secondly, note how you would rather change the subject to OSAS.

You would like to change it, as you are trying to do by trying to convince me I do not understand such doctrine, when I know more about this sect then you profess to admit to.

You wont answer any direct question with regard to such unbiblical doctrine, because the conversation or debate will become circular, you will try to make or convince the poster something different than what you really believe and profess. Then you will distort your own belief system as to agree with certain parts of the debate.

OSAS is the doctrine of demons and most know it is . Satan would love you to believe you have nothing to do for Christ but just believe, He did look what happened to him, he fell from Grace.

Sara.**

 

[sara888]

500 AD look it up

 

[Churchmouse]

**churchmouse said:No, Sara, you already revealed your understanding of OSAS and it isn’t the doctrine in the least. Secondly, note how you would rather change the subject to OSAS.

You would like to change it, as you are trying to do by trying to convince me I do not understand such doctrine, when I know more about this sect then you profess to admit to.

You wont answer any direct question with regard to such unbiblical doctrine, because the conversation or debate will become circular, you will try to make or convince the poster something different than what you really believe and profess. Then you will distort your own belief system as to agree with certain parts of the debate.

OSAS is the doctrine of demons and most know it is . Satan would love you to believe you have nothing to do for Christ but just believe, He did look what happened to him, he fell from Grace.

Sara.**

Purgatory is the issue. It is a hard doctrine to defend considering its absence. You can try instigating, going against the theme of this thread, calling it whatever you want, but I will stick to purgatory. I suggest you do the same.

Peace,
CM

 

[Pax]

Churchmouse:

This doesn’t tell me or provide evidence that this was the belief of the earliest church or a teaching of Christ and the Apostles. All it tells me is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about a doctrine not held to by the earliest church.

Peace,
CM

There is plenty of scripture to support the teaching of purgatory and you can find this on many threads on this forum. As far as the earliest Christians are concerned, you simply need to do a study of history. The earliest Christians prayed for the dead. The historical evidence for this is ample, but if you like archeological data you can have that too. Simply check out the catacombs. Prayers for the dead were written on the walls by the early Christians, and these artifacts remain there even today as a testimony to the practice.

 

[Churchmouse]

500 AD look it up

Already did:

“But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame. So great is the force of innocence, that the flame shrinks from it without doing harm; which has received from God this power, that it burns the wicked, and is under the command of the righteous. Nor, however, let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.” (The Divine Institutes, 7:21)

Note what’s missing from your “ellipsed” version, Sara?

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

Pax:

There is plenty of scripture to support the teaching of purgatory and you can find this on many threads on this forum. As far as the earliest Christians are concerned, you simply need to do a study of history. The earliest Christians prayed for the dead. The historical evidence for this is ample, but if you like archeological data you can have that too. Simply check out the catacombs. Prayers for the dead were written on the walls by the early Christians, and these artifacts remain there even today as a testimony to the practice.

You need to familiarize yourself with the thread before posting to it. All this has already been answered and refuted.

Peace,
CM

 

[Pax]

Churchmouse:

There isn’t any exegesis in any of the verses you’ve provided. Do you know what exegesis means? It means that you critically examine the text. If you do so correctly, within the context of the verses and in light of other Scripture, these verses don’t come off sounding purgatorial in the least. For instance, you restated the same argument regarding Onesiphorus, assumed he was dead and in purgatory, when he could be somewhere else. Then you never sought to find out what Catholic tradition states regarding his death which was AFTER Paul and not before.

Peace,
CM

Your belief that Onesiphorus died before Paul is merely your opinion. It is my understanding that most scripture scholars, and that includes Protestant scripture scholars, believe that Onesiphorus died before Paul. I’ll go with their understanding rather than yours.

 

[Pax]

Churchmouse:

You need to familiarize yourself with the thread before posting to it. All this has already been answered and refuted.

Peace,
CM

You assume a great deal. I have read your opinions on the subject and I am totally unconvinced. History revisited by revisionists that don’t have a clue are of no help. Your claims for refutation are greatly overstated.

 

[Churchmouse]

Pax:

Your belief that Onesiphorus died before Paul is merely your opinion. It is my understanding that most scripture scholars, and that includes Protestant scripture scholars, believe that Onesiphorus died before Paul. I’ll go with their understanding rather than yours.

No scholar states that Onesiphorus is dead, Catholic or Protestant. Some suspect that he might be dead, but there is no way to get this from the text. However, Catholic tradition states that Onesiphorus died after Paul and not me. Some Catholic apologists say the opposite. It is just an example of how Catholic tradition contradicts Catholic apologetics.

 

[Churchmouse]

Pax:

You assume a great deal. I have read your opinions on the subject and I am totally unconvinced. History revisited by revisionists that don’t have a clue are of no help.

Sure, that’s sounds fine to say, but have you proven that it is “revisionist.” Nope, you just say it is so.

Peace,
CM

 

[Pax]

Churchmouse:

No scholar states that Onesiphorus is dead, Catholic or Protestant. Some suspect that he might be dead, but there is no way to get this from the text. However, Catholic tradition states that Onesiphorus died after Paul and not me. Some Catholic apologists say the opposite. It is just an example of how Catholic tradition contradicts Catholic apologetics.

I “stated” in my post that most scholars “believe” that Onesiphorus died before Paul. Admittedly, no one is absolutely certain and I did not claim that anyone “stated” this with certainty. The difference in my claim and yours is that the best “estimation” by most scholars is the he died before Paul. I’ll take this over your spin and complaints against the Church any day. Your bias overwhelms your thinking, and makes it difficult for you to consider other possibilities. I have not created an absolute, but you seem to be diametrically and absolutely opposed to the most likely case even when scholars disagree with you.

 

[Pax]

Churchmouse:

Sure, that’s sounds fine to say, but have you proven that it is “revisionist.” Nope, you just say it is so.

Peace,
CM

You are right about that, but time doesn’t really allow for a full blown argument on the subject. Let’s just say that we have a difference of opinion. You can believe your experts and I’ll believe mine.

 

[Churchmouse]

Pax:

I “stated” in my post that most scholars “believe” that Onesiphorus died before Paul. Admittedly, no one is absolutely certain and I did not claim that anyone “stated” this with certainty. The difference in my claim and yours is that the best “estimation” by most scholars is the he died before Paul. I’ll take this over your spin and complaints against the Church any day. Your bias overwhelms your thinking, and makes it difficult for you to consider other possibilities. I have not created an absolute, but you seem to be diametrically and absolutely opposed to the most likely case even when scholars disagree with you.

Again, some scholars assume he may be dead, but none can state this for sure. Onesiphorus can be away from home and merit the same prayer Paul gives. Your “estimation” is based on your own biased acceptance of purgatory and the inability to find the substance to support it. Now, why start with the personal remarks?

CM

 

[Pax]

Churchmouse:

Again, some scholars assume he may be dead, but none can state this for sure. Onesiphorus can be away from home and merit the same prayer Paul gives. Your “estimation” is based on your own biased acceptance of purgatory and the inability to find the substance to support it. Now, why start with the personal remarks?

CM

I apologize for my personal remarks. Please be advised that you have made a similar remark with less reason to do so about Catholics in this very thread. Moreover you just did to me what you have accused me of. You think that I simply have a biased acceptance, but you are wrong. I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time researching this teaching especially since many of my non-Catholic friends have questioned me on it. I have looked at both sides of this issue and have read and participated in numerous exchanges concerning it. I have come away with the belief that the Church is right simply because the arguments for it are stronger than the arguments against it.

Scripture supports it, the historical christian belief supports it, and it simply makes more sense than the counter arguments. That may appear to be biased in your mind and so be it. If my remarks concerning your biases have offended you, then I apologize to you for having made the remark. It was not my intention to offend you. I suppose we all have some bias to begin with and I will not deny that. I do, however, do the best I can to look at the data objectively. In this particular case, I believe the data clearly favors our position.

You seem to think that I haven’t made a sensible argument concerning Onesiphorus. Please be advised that many, not just some, scholars believe that he was dead based on the language used by Paul. The second letter to Timothy is believed to be Paul’s final epistle and that he was awaiting execution. While it is possible that Onesiphorus was not dead, and while it is possible that Paul’s statement could be interpreted according to your view, it isn’t likely. This is why there are many scholars that believe he died before Paul. If your interpretation was so strong and obvious, no one would believe that he died before Paul. Moreover, Protestant scholars that do not accept the teaching on purgatory have no bias or preconceived ideas to make them believe that he died before Paul, yet they also believe that he did. Just because most Catholic scholars believe that he died before Paul does not mean that they do so because of “purgatorial bias.” If you think otherwise, then I suggest you prove it.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Churchmouse:

I’ve read the ECM on the subject, as well as the Scriptures accepted by the undivided Church at the various Councils from 393 through 419 (Confirmed by the Second Council of Niceae in 787 AD (750 yrs. BEFORE Luther, Calvin and Swingle)…

Churchmouse:

You know, it works in reverse as well. The second the Catholic realizes that purgatory is a later addition, one which wasn’t believed by the early church, then one comes to the realization that Rome can be wrong about other things as well. Again, if it wasn’t taught, it wasn’t taught regardless of what Popes or Councils say. Are you thinking this one through?

Again, this is faulty reasoning in light that the Church didn’t teach purgatory early on. Again, are you thinking this one through?

…I’m on solid ground to state that these both taught Purgatory in the sense that I’ve described it here and on other threads, which is the Teaching of the Council of Trent on the Issue.

I’m also very grateful for it, because i know that I know that, unless I live like St Francis of Assisi or st. Padre Pio, I’ll probably need it to fix some character defect before i approach the Unaldulterated Divibne Presence (Remember, NOT even Moses was allowed to see the Face of God, and only the High Priest was allowed to say his name, and that once a year.

I’m not sure that you understand the Majesty and Awe that we’re dealing with and the preparation that we’ll need for HIM. Remember, the Chabod of God was so great that Solomon had to offer sacrifice OUTSIDE the Temple!

Churchmouse, I was just trying to tell the brothers that it was no use discussing this Doctrine with you, since you weren’t receptive to what they were saying. I’m sorry if you thought I should have addressed you, but I really hate it when it seems as if people are ganging up on someone, and I didn’t want that to happen here.

Churchmouse:

If you are referring to me then post to me directly. No, where do you see the truth being portrayed here. Are you reading these posts? What is the basis for your determining their responses as truth? What would make what I’ve submitted an “untruth”? This is what you are assuming, correct?

…That’s the question in all of our lives. Do we accept the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church which gives us the Bible, or do we insist on our own interpretation of the Bible and or that of our non-Catholic denominations.

The second has produced an alphabet soup of denominations, none of whom talk or pray or care about the other, and, I’m sorry if this offends you, but that’s a scandal in the eyes of our Lord and just breaks His heart…

Churchmouse:

Caring is one thing, but slighting truth in favor of ignorance is another. Again, this translates to demeaning another (“let’s pray for this lost brother”) rather then dealing with the issue at hand.

Peace,
CM

…I’m sure that you know that I’m not saying that, esp. since I cited the example of the Community of Taize! If you’ve done any reading on Taize and Brother Roger who was so recently martyred (he was a CALVINIST just so you know), you’d know that Taize started as a Protestant Community, but now is a Christian Community of Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants who pray together, eat together and to share needs, sollutions and resources. They’ve done this for some 55+ years since the late 1940’s:

taize.fr/
taize.fr/en_article2496.html
cathnews.com/news/508/135.php
anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/40/25/acns4025.cfm
timesonline.co.uk/article/0,60-1739368,00.html

Once you read about the Taize Community and the Godly works they have and are producing because they pray, suffer and celebrate together, I’m sure you’ll see what I meant.

I think than you’ll see it’s the exact opposite of what you thought I said.

Next time, you might want to try to assume a little better motivation on the part of your brother in Christ. Othrwise, you’ll make the same mistake again with someone else.

In Christ, Michael

 

[sara888]

**churchmouse, you have been shown several times that purgatory did and does exist with the early church and the church today. How can we say anymore on the subject.
you barley understand your own Theology or doctrine OSAS which I will start a thread on when I have the time.

You need to read the lives of the Saints since many were witnesses to Purgatory. The Saints hold many truths with regard to this Catholic Dogma.

You also need a refresher course on your own Religion and its beliefs.

Sara**

 

[Mickey]

Pax:

Scripture supports it, the historical christian belief supports it, and it simply makes more sense than the counter arguments.

That’s it in a nutshell!

 

[Joe_Monahan]

This thread is no longer a viable discussion.

Posters on both sides of the issue are repeating their repetitions and it is clear that neither side is about to convince the other.

The thread is now closed.

Joe