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steve_b
Guest
Purgatory only does one good if they die in sanctifying grace. Apparently that’s a big if, or Jesus, the one who judges all of humanity, wouldn’t have said Matthew 7:14
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blanchardman
Guest
“Vacation” is over time to get back to work.
B
blanchardman
Guest
Ecclesiastes 12:7
The spirit of the dead returns to God. No mention of “good”, “saved”, “believers” or “clean”. The dead, all the dead.
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blanchardman
Guest
You failed to mention:
The second coming and first resurrection.
The war.
The wedding feast.
Satan bound.
The 1000 year reign.
Satan released.
Gog and Magag gather for war.
The fire, heaven and earth destroyed,second resurrection, judgment of works.
The bride arrives.
We bring out treasures into New Jerusalem.
We live forever on the new earth.
J
JohnR77
Guest
**Purgatory is a Gift
**
defendingthebride.com/sc/purgatory.html#overview
**
**
All those who go there will be grateful for the opportunity to be there.
In regards to Purgatory we all agree that Jesus Christ paid the price of our guilt and by his gift of forgiveness that our guilt is wiped away. As for making restitution for our sins, correcting the wrong we committed, I think all those going into purgatory will regard it as a gift and a blessing to go there on the way to heaven, even though the suffering will be real and perhaps severe for some.
**In regards to Purgatory we all agree that Jesus Christ paid the price of our guilt and by his gift of forgiveness that our guilt is wiped away. As for making restitution for our sins, correcting the wrong we committed, I think all those going into purgatory will regard it as a gift and a blessing to go there on the way to heaven, even though the suffering will be real and perhaps severe for some.
Code:
I think of those I have loved and in some way hurt by my sins. I feel terrible remorse for having hurt them. I want to make good and repair the harm I caused.
Out of my love for them I want to make up for the hurt. Hopefully, I can make restitution on this earth, but if not I would and will want to do so in purgatory. Purgatory is not God exacting some vengeance against sinners. It is His gift to them.
In heaven I will have an intense love for everyone. I will have that deep desire to make good to everyone for the hurt my sins have caused. My sins hurt the whole body of Christ. Sin and grace are communal. By the grace Jesus won for us on the cross we have the ability to go through purgatory in order to make just restitution for our sins against others. Out of love for God and for them we will want to accomplish that. Because our love for them will be deep, so will our desire to make that restitution be deeply felt by us. And so our gratitude for purgatory will heart felt.
CCC 1473
“ ... the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. …”
New Catholic Encyclopedia:
“**Purgatory** is the state, place or condition in the next world which will continue until the Last Judgment, where the souls of those who die in a state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection**, make** expiation, that is, **restitution** for unforgiven venial sins and mortal sins that have already been forgiven**, and by doing so, are purified before they enter heaven."**defendingthebride.com/sc/purgatory.html#overview
**
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blanchardman
Guest
How do you reconcile that with Ecclesiastes 12:7?
J
JohnR77
Guest
There are several quotations from Ecclesiastes that seem to deny the resurrection (and purgatory). To answer this question we have to ask :
Ecclesiastes : What is its Meaning and Purpose ?
Does it deny the resurrection?
What does it teach?
See separate thread at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14794327#post14794327
John
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blanchardman
Guest
I read your post but not your web site. In
Ecclesiastes We have a definitive statement " the spirit shall return to God". Please, if you can, reconcile that with the teaching of purgatory.
J
JohnR77
Guest
If we are going to God we have to ask Where’s God at. It’s not a physical location it’s at spiritual Perfection and purity. Purgatory is on the way to heaven where we get cleansed of the effects of sin
J
JohnR77
Guest
Now, when I wrote, “There are several quotations from Ecclesiastes that seem to deny the resurrection.” I was intending special emphasis on the word “seem.” They only seem to.
I do NOT believe that there could be any good Christians who would hold that Ecclesiastes teaches against the resurrection and I think that position should be obvious to any knowledgeable Christian. The hallmark of Christianity is belief in the Resurrection - that Jesus rose from the dead – and acceptance of the Bible (although the Catholic would more correctly say "acceptance of God’s Church, the Catholic Church, which implies acceptance of the Bible).
While Protestants debate the inclusion of some Books of the Bible no one doubts that Ecclesiastes is to be included. It was included in every list of each of the Church Fathers. Therefore, Ecclesiastes could not possibly deny the resurrection, and that has to be obvious to every knowledgeable Christian.
My response to how the various verses in Ecclesiastes relate to Purgatory was a two step argument. I did not bother stating the second step as I assumed it was already obvious and did not need to be stated. However, I now think I should explain in detail in case I am assuming to much, as I sometimes do.
Some Protestants want to use these verses in Ecclesiastes to argue against Purgatory. Most people are undisciplined in their thinking and allow their emotions to govern what they believe instead of letting God’s truth prevail. Since they are dead set against Purgatory it works best to change the subject initially to heaven and then bring it back to purgatory.
So let’s get them to see and agree that these verses do not really deny the resurrection. Whether they accept my explanation or some other they will agree that these verses cannot deny the resurrection. They have to.
Step #2.
The argumentation they used to explain how these verses do not deny the resurrection can usually, if not always, be used to also show how they now no longer have a “proof” for using them to deny Purgatory either.
God bless,
John
G
Gorgias
Guest
Actually, I’d assert that the statement is less ‘definitive’ than you make it out to be.
In the Greek, we have: πνεῦμα ἐπιστρέψῃ πρὸς τὸν θεόν ὃς ἔδωκεν αὐτό.
I think that there are two important points to be made regarding this text:
- πνεῦμα can be rendered either as ‘breath’ or ‘spirit’ (and sometimes, even ‘wind’). (In the NT, the context generally demands that it be translated ‘spirit’, especially in contexts in which the Holy Spirit is referenced.) . In John 3:8, we see it translated as ‘wind’; in Rev 13:15, it’s translated either as ‘breath’ or ‘life’.
That being said, if this chapter is dealing with death, then it’s not counter to this context to say that, at the time of death, the physical effects are that the body returns to the dust and the life-breath returns to God. Neither of these assertions deny the doctrine of Purgation.
- It’s important – for the Scriptural exegete – to examine the theological implications of what is written here in Ecclesiastes. The text doesn’t just say that the breath “returns”; it says that it returns to God who gave it. Now, theologically speaking, I think I’d make the case that, since the text is talking about things that are lost in old age and death, then we should ask what it means for the πνεῦμα to be lost.
Moreover, we should ask what the author and the intended audience of his time would make of this passage. For them, the body went into the ground and the soul ‘went’ to Sheol. In Sheol, the person no longer had access to God (cf any of the relevant passages in the OT, especially Hezekiah’s prayer of thanksgiving in Isaiah 38 (esp v.18) and Psalms 6 and 115). Therefore, from the OT perspective, it doesn’t make sense to say that the soul returns to God at death. Rather, they would have asserted that the soul goes down to Sheol, from whence it no longer has access to God.
Therefore, no matter how you slice it, the translation of πνεῦμα as “spirit”, in a way that conflicts with Catholic doctrine, doesn’t wash in this context. Rather, given the context of the chapter, the theological understanding of the author and his intended audience, and basic Catholic theology, the proper understanding of the line in question is that the physical life-breath of the person is what is lost at death. In other words, there’s no linkage – negative or otherwise – between this verse and the doctrine of Purgation.
J
jlhargus
Guest
[Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and **the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.]
[Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but **after this the judgment:]
The spirit or soul of the just and unjust return to God for judgment. The unjust will go to Hades till the resurrection. Then Hades along with the unjust shall be thrown into the lake of fire. The just who have works of wood or straw will go to purgatory, the just who have only works of gold or silver will into heaven.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
So? How does that change the concept of Purgatory? It doesn’t because it doesn’t indicate by what means we make that journey back to God. And as I’m sure others have probably already pointed out that the book of Revelation21:27 plainly states that ***"[27] But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life."
One thing that I often point out is that if we routinely wash up before we eat a meal, then how much more so would we not do so before partaking in the marriage supper of the Lamb? Keeping also in mind Our Blessed Lord’s parable of the man who went to the king’s wedding feast without a wedding garment.
I also found that we share a purgatorial belief with our Jewish friends. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
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steve_b
Guest
Fortunately, or Unfortunately as the case will be, Jesus who does all the judging, told us in advance how it will go for all of humanity.
Jesus said Few make it to heaven.
It amazes me, Why people don’t appear to show fear of that point.
Since those who go through purgatory, (purgation ) on the Day they die and are judged, are also counted in the few who go to heaven
- ***1 Cor 3: *13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day(“1cor3 RSVCE - On Divisions in the Corinthian Church - Bible Gateway”) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do people even fear that? Do they even think about that?
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Note: ἀπώλεια, apóleia: = destruction, eternal ruin.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,"
Note:
- Jesus didn’t deny or correct the questioner’s point.
- Jesus actually validated the point, only a few go to heaven
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blanchardman
Guest
.]
[Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but **after this the judgment:]
The spirit or soul of the just and unjust return to God for judgment. The unjust will go to Hades till the resurrection. Then Hades along with the unjust shall be thrown into the lake of fire. The just who have works of wood or straw will go to purgatory, the just who have only works of gold or silver will into heaven.
The first line of your response is well stated, on point and correct. The judgment is to determine who is worthy to put on immortality and enter their abode.
The last line deals with1 Corinthians 3:13-16. This is the final judgment. It happens after the second resurrection. Therefore it cannot be speaking of purgatory.
J
jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by jlhargus
[Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.]
[Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:]
The spirit or soul of the just and unjust return to God for judgment. The unjust will go to Hades till the resurrection. Then Hades along with the unjust shall be thrown into the lake of fire. The just who have works of wood or straw will go to purgatory, the just who have only works of gold or silver will into heaven.
If one is not judged at death then you are essentially teaching all souls, good and evil, go to God and remain with God till the final judgment. Then all will be judged and the evil souls will be separated from God at that time.
[Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.]
[Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:]
The spirit or soul of the just and unjust return to God for judgment. The unjust will go to Hades till the resurrection. Then Hades along with the unjust shall be thrown into the lake of fire. The just who have works of wood or straw will go to purgatory, the just who have only works of gold or silver will into heaven.
I agree, [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:], deals with 1Corinthians3:13-16. I disagree it is the final judgment. “That Day” in 1Cor3 deals with judgment after bodily death.
If one is not judged at death then you are essentially teaching all souls, good and evil, go to God and remain with God till the final judgment. Then all will be judged and the evil souls will be separated from God at that time.
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blanchardman
Guest
You must have missed “The judgment is to determine who is worthy to put on immortality and enter their abode.”.
“The Day” according to the footnotes on 1Cor3:13 in the NAB it is “the great day of Yahweh” which makes it the final judgment.
J
jlhargus
Guest
I didn’t miss it, when I get time I will answer. I’m in the process of moving next couple weeks.
In the mean time please answer what you must have missed, “If one is not judged at death then you are essentially teaching all souls, good and evil, go to God and remain with God till the final judgment. Then all will be judged and the evil souls will be separated from God at that time.”
I have no problem with NAB footnote, that Day comes for each person when they die.
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blanchardman
Guest
2 Esdras 78-80
Concerning the wicked.
1: They adore the glory of the Most High.
2: They will not enter into habitation(rest).
3: They will wander about in torment.
I think this torment will be mental.
As for the footnote in the NAB. The great day of Yahweh is the day of judgment for heaven and earth.
Earth and all mankind will be judged by fire on that day.
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blanchardman
Guest
We cannot know the number of people who will be saved. We should be able to know what portion of mankind will be. So you?Fortunately, or Unfortunately as the case will be, Jesus who does all the judging, told us in advance how it will go for all of humanity.
Jesus said Few make it to heaven.
It amazes me, Why people don’t appear to show fear of that point.
Since those who go through purgatory, (purgation ) on the Day they die and are judged, are also counted in the few who go to heaven
Then that means the rest, (most of humanity) when they die and are judged, go to hell.
- ***1 Cor 3: *13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day(“1cor3 RSVCE - On Divisions in the Corinthian Church - Bible Gateway”) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do people even fear that? Do they even think about that?
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Note: ἀπώλεια, apóleia: = destruction, eternal ruin.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,"
Note:
- Jesus didn’t deny or correct the questioner’s point.
- Jesus actually validated the point, only a few go to heaven
- Status