Purgatory

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Time permitting Blanchardman if you would like to discuss a new topic such as bible alone and the Church let me know I will start a new line. Or any Catholic teaching.

God Bless
 
jlhargus said:
Time permitting Blanchardman if you would like to discuss a new topic such as bible alone and the Church let me know I will start a new line. Or any Catholic teaching.

God Bless
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I am having a hard time keeping up with this one.
 
steve_b said:
Re: 2 Macc 12:44 "For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. "

I thought I answered that one in post #88

I said, Re: Man #1, “if one doesn’t believe in the resurrection but believes in purgatory, that makes no sense.”

Or IOW that seems foolish to me, because Man#1 is thinking the dead stay dead, they don’t rise again, so in the next breath why would he pray for his wife in purgatory?
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Man#1 could think heaven is the end of the line but it is not important.
What is important is that Judas M. believed his men would be helped after the resurrection by his prayers.
My conclusion is, when you pray for the dead you should have the resurrection In mind not just purgatory.
 
blanchardman said:
Let’s try this again. Treat this like a question on a reading comprehension test. The only information you have to work with is what is posted here.
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riginally Posted by blanchardman View Post
“44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.”
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Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.
In light of the quoted verse which one is acting foolishly?
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No one is acting foolishly…God will not waste prayers.

The one acting foolishly is the one who does not believe in purgation…😉
 
blanchardman said:
Man#1 could think heaven is the end of the line but it is not important.
What is important is that Judas M. believed his men would be helped after the resurrection by his prayers.
My conclusion is, when you pray for the dead you should have the resurrection In mind not just purgatory.
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But that is the the reaspn for the prayers for the dead in purgatory…to make it to heaven for the final resurrection…🤷
 
pablope said:
No one is acting foolishly…God will not waste prayers.

The one acting foolishly is the one who does not believe in purgation…😉
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You failed. You added elements (God and purgation) that are not in the “story”. Try again.
 
blanchardman said:
What is important is that Judas M. believed his men would be helped after the resurrection by his prayers.
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Scripture doesn’t say that, you have added an element after not in scripture.
blanchardman said:
My conclusion is, when you pray for the dead you should have the resurrection In mind not just purgatory.
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When we pray for the dead the resurrection to life eternal is in mind or goal of our prayers.
 
jlhargus said:
Scripture doesn’t say that, you have added an element after not in scripture.
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This was not part of the example in my question.
You find a way to put purgatory into it despite the fact that the only mention of the “afterlife” is the resurrection. In verse 45 It mentions “rewards”
In Revelation 21:7 we “inherit” gifts.
In Isaiah 40:10 we see He has rewards with Him after his “recompense”
In Isaiah 62:11 we see He is Jesus.
Perhaps, when someone has arrived in heaven, and
and their love ones continue to pray for them the prayers are applied to them as “gifts” after the final judgment.
When we pray for the dead the resurrection to life eternal is in mind or goal of our prayers.
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I thought we are judged at death as to being worthy of “life eternal”.
 
pablope said:
But that is the the reaspn for the prayers for the dead in purgatory…to make it to heaven for the final resurrection…🤷
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Just a thought, at the time of the “final” resurrection will the souls still in purgatory be resurrected?
 
blanchardman said:
This was not part of the example in my question.
You find a way to put purgatory into it despite the fact that the only mention of the “afterlife” is the resurrection. In verse 45 It mentions “rewards”
In Revelation 21:7 we “inherit” gifts.
In Isaiah 40:10 we see He has rewards with Him after his “recompense”
In Isaiah 62:11 we see He is Jesus.
Perhaps, when someone has arrived in heaven, and
and their love ones continue to pray for them the prayers are applied to them as “gifts” after the final judgment.
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Judas said prayers and requested offerings as expiation for there sins, in the hope they would be resurrected. Thus, it’s worthy to pray for someone after death if they were known to be less than saintly. Prayers for the dead are worthwhile.
I thought we are judged at death as to being worthy of “life eternal”.
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And if we are judged “worthy” but imperfect, we are purged of our attachment to sin and made perfect by God before attaining the beaitifc vision.

Really, many of the early Church Fathers clearly didn’t believe all Christians went immediately to Heaven, excepting only the martyrs, who were great witnesses to the faith, and found it a worthy practice to pray for those who died.
 
blanchardman said:
You failed. You added elements (God and purgation) that are not in the “story”. Try again.
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Really? Then your story/question fails in its utter foolishness…:eek:

Here is what you posted/asked:

[SIGN]Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.
In light of the quoted verse which one is acting foolishly?[/SIGN]

Well…for one thing…you introduced prayer in your question…so who is the man praying to for his wife? God or something else?

And in the second part, you yourself asked and included the element of pugatory…so you added purgatory in your question…🤷
 
Wesrock said:
Judas said prayers and requested offerings as expiation for there sins, in the hope they would be resurrected. Thus, it’s worthy to pray for someone after death if they were known to be less than saintly. Prayers for the dead are worthwhile.
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Judas believed his prayers would benefit his men at or after the resurrection.
And if we are judged “worthy” but imperfect, we are purged of our attachment to sin and made perfect by God before attaining the beaitifc vision.
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Really, many of the early Church Fathers clearly didn’t believe all Christians went immediately to Heaven, excepting only the martyrs, who were great witnesses to the faith, and found it a worthy practice to pray for those who died.
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At the first resurrection there will be two groups. The first group is the saints returning with Jesus. The second group is the believers who are awaiting His return. The first group would have had to go through purgatory. The second group will not. They all end up in the same place. It doesn’t make sense.
 
pablope said:
Really? Then your story/question fails in its utter foolishness…:eek:

Here is what you posted/asked:

[SIGN]Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.
In light of the quoted verse which one is acting foolishly?[/SIGN]

Well…for one thing…you introduced prayer in your question…so who is the man praying to for his wife? God or something else?

And in the second part, you yourself asked and included the element of pugatory…so you added purgatory in your question…🤷
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[QUOTE44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
[/QUOTE]
 
blanchardman said:
Judas believed his prayers would benefit his men at or after the resurrection.

At the first resurrection there will be two groups. The first group is the saints returning with Jesus. The second group is the believers who are awaiting His return. The first group would have had to go through purgatory. The second group will not. They all end up in the same place. It doesn’t make sense.
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That second group those still alive on earth at the resurrection. Their faith will have been tried by fire, not literal fire but the Tribulation, and purified.

[Rv7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, **These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]

[1Pt1:7 **That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:]
 
Post 110 continued.(thought I had pressed preview.)
The quoted verse ( from 2 Mac 12) introduced prayers.
I used " purgatory" (note “”) to allow for an alternative reason for prayers for the dead.
The main point is the question calls for a simple answer.
Man#1
or
Man#2

Then we could discuss “why?”
 
blanchardman said:
Post 110 continued.(thought I had pressed preview.)
The quoted verse ( from 2 Mac 12) introduced prayers.
I used " purgatory" (note “”) to allow for an alternative reason for prayers for the dead.
The main point is the question calls for a simple answer.
Man#1
or
Man#2

Then we could discuss “why?”
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The last 4 things


  1. *]death
    *]judgement
    *]heaven
    *]hell

    Since all who go through purgation ( temporary not permanent) go to heaven, it doesn’t change the last 4 events.

    And since:

    Man #1 believes in “purgatory” but not the resurrection. His wife died. He prays for her.
    Man #2 believes in the resurrection but not “purgatory”. His wife died. He prays for her.

    So

    Who the question is, which one is acting foolishly?

    Both men could be said to operate out of hope. They both prayed for their dead wife.

    however,

    man#1,
    From a technical standpoint, if he doesn’t believe in the resurrection, then unless we examine what that really means in that guys mind, I have to assume, he believes once dead always dead. So why pray? Pray for what?

    man#2
    If he doesn’t believe in purgatory, he must think his wife went to heaven straight shot. So I’m thinking why is that guy praying for his wife if he thinks she is in heaven? People in heaven need no prayer. And people in hell can’t use prayers. So in his mind, how is prayer even doing anything?
 
PRmerger said:
How does something unclean enter heaven?
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Great point. Revelation 21:27. Many Orthodox/Catholics know that verse, but very few others. Curious, huh? Recall here that Martin Luther did not like Revelation - another book that conflicted with his personal theology. I believe that Melanchthon convinced Luther to include it in the 1545 Luther Bibel.

The huge obstacle for many Protestants is that the “reformation” eliminated the effects of sin; negating the cost of sin, essentially making Christ the whipping boy for the price of our post-baptismal sin. Why then repentance? Why then the need for Paul’s ministry of reconciliation with the Lord (2 Cor 5)? Why then did Paul forgive sins in the person of/authority of Christ - for the sake of others (2 Cor 2:10)?

I can understand why Protestants do not perceive even the need for it. I believe they will be eternally grateful for it one day, as I pray Luther is thankful for it as we speak.
 
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