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Vico
Guest
Hebrews 8:5 speaks of tabernacle (portable tent) but a temple is different than a tabernacle. About the Temple in Rev 21:22 " the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof".
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blanchardman
Guest
The only statement I make about my “religion” is: I am ex-Catholic. I am self taught.
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pablope
Guest
Then, if you are self taught…you are being “Biblical” as per the Scripture you cited…and failed to answer the question in post 50:
But you missed totally the prior verse, starting at Verse 14, here is the whole passage in context:
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
So let me ask you Blanchardman…re-reading 2tim3:16 starting at verse 14…does it still say scriptures alone?
Or is there something else aside from Scriptures alone?
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pablope
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Hmm…you better read Rev 21:22 again:
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
There is indeed a temple…but the temple is God and the Lamb.
And Heb 8:5: bu tlook at the prior verses for context:
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a]
“They” is referring to someone on earth.
There is no mention of a temple, but a “a copy and shadow of what is in heaven”…a tabernacle…
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jlhargus
Guest
Please demonstrate that using scripture.
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jlhargus
Guest
So all souls saved and unsaved go to this abode (chamber, mansion) watched over by angels till judgment, if not, then when were they judged? Also could you provide scripture evidence for your statement?
po18guy
Well-known member
We therefore invite you back. But, Christ did not make the faith a do-it-yourself project. He established the Church as He stated, Paul stated and the scriptures state, as the final authority in all matters. The bible is a crucial part of that, but not the way Christ intended for the faith to be handed on. As well, he did not leave us orphans.
Back on the subject, the doctrine of a purgation process has zero effect on our salvation. It only attempts to show how we are saved, based on the various scriptures that have been given. We know that scripture is easily twisted to a believer’s destruction (2 Peter 3:16-17). If it could be twisted 2,000 years ago, how much more so today?
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jlhargus
Guest
Yes it is nice to find a point of agreement. I see from your statement above we can also agree 1Cor3:13 is teaching one is saved as by fire. We disagree on when it takes place.
[1Cor3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.]
Paul is speaking of fellow Christian laborers who are building God’s building the Church. Only saved persons pass through the fire of 1Cor3:8-15. They have only venial sins wood, hay or stubble not deadly sins.
[1Cor3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.]
[We can also agree that 2Pt3:7-10 is talking about the universe and earth being burned up at the end. We disagree 1Cor3:13 and 2Pt3:7-10 are the same event.
[2Pt3:7 But **the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 …. 9 …. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.]
No saved person’s works will be tried by the fire of 2Pt3:7-10, when the universe and earth are burned up. It is the judgment and damnation of the ungodly. The saved will be caught up into the air to meet Christ at his coming.
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pablope
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If you are self taught…then you certainly are being “unBiblical.”
From post 50, which you have failed to address the question, and I am reposting:
But you missed totally the prior verse, starting at Verse 14, here is the whole passage in context:
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
So let me ask you Blanchardman…re-reading 2tim3:16 starting at verse 14…does it still say scriptures alone?
Or is there something else aside from Scriptures alone?
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Michael_Francis
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http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/Off-Topic--Alert.gif
Return to the topic of Purgatory please.
Sola Scriptura is not the topic of this discussion and if it deviates again the thread may be closed.
Return to the topic of Purgatory please.
Sola Scriptura is not the topic of this discussion and if it deviates again the thread may be closed.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Maybe this will help along this discussion and since Bman is self taught then this may help his education. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
You wash up before you eat don’t you? Then who wouldn’t do so before joining in the marriage supper of the Lamb? Look up Revelation 21:27
By the way Bman…ex-Catholic? Been there and done that. It was one of the worst mistakes of my life. See My Testimony.
You wash up before you eat don’t you? Then who wouldn’t do so before joining in the marriage supper of the Lamb? Look up Revelation 21:27
By the way Bman…ex-Catholic? Been there and done that. It was one of the worst mistakes of my life. See My Testimony.
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Vico
Guest
Haydock Commentary 1 Cor 3 Ver. 12-15 (excerpt):
- By the day of the Lord, is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. …
- As to fire, which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what St. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. * First, he tells us, (ver. 13.) that the day of the Lord…shall be revealed; or, as it is in the Greek, is revealed in, or by fire; where, by fire, is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor of fire. * Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, that fire shall try every one’s work, of what sort it is. This may be again taken for the examining and trying fire of God’s judgments: and may be applied to the builders, whether preachers only or all the faithful. * Thirdly, he tells us, (ver. 14. and 15.) that some men’s works abide the fire of God’s judgments, they deserve no punishment, they are like pure gold, which receives no prejudice from the fire: but some men’s works burn, the superstructure, which they built upon the faith of Christ, besides gold, silver, precious stones, had also a mixture of wood, hay, stubble, which could not stand the trial of fire, which met with combustible matter, that deserved to be burnt.
Every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of St. Paul were expounded by St. Chrysostom and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said to be saved by fire, inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: but this interpretation, as the Latin bishops replied, is not agreeable to the style of the holy Scriptures, in which, to be saved, both in the Greek and Latin, is expressed the salvation and happiness of souls in heaven. It may not be amiss to take notice that the Greeks, before they met with the Latins at Ferrara, of Florence, did not deny the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place of darkness, of sorrow, of punishments, and pains, but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. (Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515.)
(Witham)
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pablope
Guest
So what is the difference between these two Jerusalems? (aside from the temple)
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blanchardman
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2 Esdras 7:75-101
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blanchardman
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Matthew21:17 “My house” the temple in Jerusalem (earthly).Hmm…you better read Rev 21:22 again:
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
There is indeed a temple…but the temple is God and the Lamb.
And Heb 8:5: bu tlook at the prior verses for context:
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a]
“They” is referring to someone on earth.
There is no mention of a temple, but a “a copy and shadow of what is in heaven”…a tabernacle…
John 14:2 “My Father’s house” the temple in Jerusalem (Heavenly).
In these examples God is " inside" the temple in New Jerusalem we will no longer need to go to a building to worship or make offerings He will be there in a more tangible sense.
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pablope
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Sorry Blanchardman…I am confused as ever. First, you cited Rev 21:22 and Heb 8:5…so they do not satisfy your initial explanation and now are pointing out other passages? \
Seems you are getting out of context again and isolating passages.
Matt 21:
17 And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.
So where is the temple mentioned in this verse?
But starting at Verse 12, the segment is about the Jewish Temple in existence:
12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
This is talking about the Jewish temple, and does not mention anything about a heavenly temple.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
Well…how did you come to the conclusion that the Father’s house is a temple in Heavenly Jerusalem?
But the temple mentioned in Matt 21 is the Jewish temple…not the heavenly temple.
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jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by jlhargus So all souls saved and unsaved go to this abode (chamber, mansion) watched over by angels till judgment, if not, then when were they judged? Also could you provide scripture evidence for your statement?
I would suggest if you have scripture evidence post it. Not to be mean, but I am not going to read 26 chapters. It’s your responsibility to back up your statements.
I don’t know if you made a mistake in posting 2Esdras7:75-101 but it is not found on biblegateway in any of the six versions or more I tried. I also check Ezra 7 but it only has 18 verses. I know some older bibles had different spelling or different names.
I would suggest if you have scripture evidence post it. Not to be mean, but I am not going to read 26 chapters. It’s your responsibility to back up your statements.
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blanchardman
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jlhargus
Yes it is nice to find a point of agreement. I see from your statement above we can also agree 1Cor3:13 is teaching one is saved as by fire. We disagree on when it takes place.
Correct. I say it happens after the resurrection.
2 Esdras is in The New Revised Standard Version.
It is on biblegateway. If you want a single verse it is 95. The rest is just suggested reading.j
Yes it is nice to find a point of agreement. I see from your statement above we can also agree 1Cor3:13 is teaching one is saved as by fire. We disagree on when it takes place.
Correct. I say it happens after the resurrection.
2 Esdras is in The New Revised Standard Version.
It is on biblegateway. If you want a single verse it is 95. The rest is just suggested reading.j
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blanchardman
Guest
Sloppy penmanship+ poor eyesight = pops wrong verse. It should have been Matthew21:13. That temple is earthly as I mentioned. The one in John14:2 is heavenly.
Sorry Blanchardman…I am confused as ever. First, you cited Rev 21:22 and Heb 8:5…so they do not satisfy your initial explanation and now are pointing out other passages? \
Seems you are getting out of context again and isolating passages.
Matt 21:
17 And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.
So where is the temple mentioned in this verse?
But starting at Verse 12, the segment is about the Jewish Temple in existence:
12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
This is talking about the Jewish temple, and does not mention anything about a heavenly temple.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
Well…how did you come to the conclusion that the Father’s house is a temple in Heavenly Jerusalem?
But the temple mentioned in Matt 21 is the Jewish temple…not the heavenly temple.
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blanchardman
Guest
Tiny keyboard+ clumsy fingers= “pops” it should have read “oops”.
Logging off until Monday.
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