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blanchardman
Guest
Always nice to find a point of agreement.
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po18guy
Well-known member
If these are the footnotes appended to the New American Bible, they are neither binding nor necessarily orthodox Christian thinking.
OP: Opposition to purgatory seems mainly to come from those who presume, against the scriptures, that they are already saved, and thus in need of no purification at all to enter the Kingdom. Clearly, if the scriptures will not convince them, no earthly argument will. The human ego is extremely strong and the spirit of division well knows this.
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blanchardman
Guest
po18guy: i did not have enough free time today to respond to your post. I’ll try tomorrow. I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you.
po18guy
Well-known member
Oh, no worries at all. I’m quite used to it - married for almost 37 years!
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blanchardman
Guest
18guy:
1:No I do not believe in “soul sleep”
2:The day: 2 Peter3:7&10= 1Cor3:13. The final judgment is by fire.
3: You might have misunderstood my question about the “sin” of the rich man in my earlier post. I was not asking about the nature of sin in general. The question was about THE rich man.
4: I have read 1&2 Maccabees. Judas believed only in the resurrection not purgatory and that we can be loosed from our sins after the resurrection.
5: I agree with your statement about God being outside our time perception. The Word speaks to man from man’s perception for man’s understanding. Therefore if the bible says event “A” happens before event “C” and event “B” happens at the same time as “A” and “B” is a perceivable event that has not happened we can’t say that “C” is happening.
End of reply your first post.
1:No I do not believe in “soul sleep”
2:The day: 2 Peter3:7&10= 1Cor3:13. The final judgment is by fire.
3: You might have misunderstood my question about the “sin” of the rich man in my earlier post. I was not asking about the nature of sin in general. The question was about THE rich man.
4: I have read 1&2 Maccabees. Judas believed only in the resurrection not purgatory and that we can be loosed from our sins after the resurrection.
5: I agree with your statement about God being outside our time perception. The Word speaks to man from man’s perception for man’s understanding. Therefore if the bible says event “A” happens before event “C” and event “B” happens at the same time as “A” and “B” is a perceivable event that has not happened we can’t say that “C” is happening.
End of reply your first post.
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blanchardman
Guest
:
:thumbsup:33 for me.Oh, no worries at all. I’m quite used to it - married for almost 37 years!
po18guy
Well-known member
Awfully hard to extract this from the texts, unless one has a pre-supposed position, which both of us do. It does not state specifically that this applies to post-resurrection. It was well-known even then that some would rise to everlasting shame, having already been judged (Is. 45, Jer. 25, Dan. 12). 2 Maccabees 7:14 states that there will be no resurrection to life for some. Too late for forgiveness post-resurrection! Thus, it must by reason apply to pre-resurrection.
We are sidestepping the main point that nothing impure (inside or out) enters God’s Kingdom. Unless we are perfected, how do we enter? Even assuming that Christ carries us through the gates; the guilt of our sins being gone; we are still sinners in our very substance! How are we purified of sin, proclivity to sin, attachment to disordered thoughts and actions, mentally and spiritually purified, so that we may enter?
If we are “snow covered” as Luther maintained, God knows our hearts and the stuff of which we are made. Is our snow covering going to fool Him? The reformers declared, for the first time in Christian history, that none of this matters, placing it all on Christ’s sacrifice. Yet, many more verses of scripture - setting aside the Apostolic teaching for now - go against them than for them.
Christ entered the Father’s Kingdom only via the way of pain, suffering and sacrifice. Can we, being members of His body, and taught to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, enter any other way? There is zero evidence that our suffering has ended - quite the opposite in fact for Christians. We are guaranteed suffering and that some sins are forgiven in this world, and others in the world to come.
As it is with “Trinity” and “Transubstantiation”, “Purgatory” is only the limited human word to describe something that is beyond our comprehension. You do know that it is a state of existence - not a place - that those destined for heaven experience?
Nothing impure enters Gods Kingdom.
This is the crux of the matter.
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steve_b
Guest
The USCCB you refer to says the following.
The footnotes say (emphasis mine)
- 3:13] The Day: the great day of Yahweh, the day of judgment, which can be a time of either gloom or joy. Fire both destroys and purifies.
- 3:15] Will be saved: although Paul can envision very harsh divine punishment (cf. 1 Cor 3:17), he appears optimistic about the success of divine corrective means both here and elsewhere (cf. 1 Cor 5:5; 11:32 [discipline]). The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.
*]Day of judgement is the day each one of us dies. We don’t wait till the end of the world to be judged. We are immediately judged.
*]That judgement can bring joy or gloom
*]Fire on that day brings either destruction or purification
*]purification & purgatory are synonymous teaching
that said,
One has to ask, Re: (both here and elsewhere),
Where is*** “elsewhere”*** for this purification / corrective action, if not here?
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blanchardman
Guest
po18guy:
1:"Awfully hard to extract this from the texts, unless one has a pre-supposed position, "
If you include the previous verse it is easier.
2:"Nothing impure enters Gods Kingdom. "
Please provide scripture for this.
steve b:
1: “the great day of Yahweh” 2 Peter3:7&10
2: " The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this."
Do you not understand the meaning of this?
3:“Where is “elsewhere” "
" elsewhere (cf. 1 Cor 5:5; 11:32”
1:"Awfully hard to extract this from the texts, unless one has a pre-supposed position, "
If you include the previous verse it is easier.
2:"Nothing impure enters Gods Kingdom. "
Please provide scripture for this.
steve b:
1: “the great day of Yahweh” 2 Peter3:7&10
2: " The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this."
Do you not understand the meaning of this?
3:“Where is “elsewhere” "
" elsewhere (cf. 1 Cor 5:5; 11:32”
po18guy
Well-known member
It is a dead end to attempt to prove or disprove Catholic doctrine using Protestant principles - what other conclusion can one reach except the Church is wrong? Point to consider: If Moses could not look upon God, how can we hope to? Are we better than Moses? As to impurity, have a look at Rev. 21:27. Also, non-Catholics nearly always overlook the power of binding and loosing that Christ agave His Church. HUGE! All that is held bound (like freeing from circumcision) has excellent explanation and documentation, as you will find when reading the catechism. The power of binding and loosing was lost by the reformers, so it is no longer mentioned - or simply redefined into something meaningless. But, its huge.
When questioning Catholic doctrine, one simply must set aside all personal preferences, all past teachings, all private exegesis and simply search for revealed truth. You have to take those Protestant glasses off.
I strongly and heartily suggest that seekers go to their local Catholic parish and spend time before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Doubters are especially invited. Beg the Lord to reveal to you that He is present. Then, be as patient with Him as He has been with you. When He answers, you will be changed.
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Vico
Guest
Revelation 21:27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any[one] who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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LatinRight
Guest
God bless Blanchardman,
I agree with you.
Could you prove that both go to heaven instantly?
God bless.
LatinRight
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LatinRight
Guest
God bless Jlhargus,
My post based on some member’s posts (not on this thread) of the CAF.
But I want to have the view on it from the other members of the CAF as well, because doesn’t seems to me any wisdom and justice in it.
God bless.
LatinRight
po18guy
Well-known member
Consider that you are not the first non-Catholic to ask where such a verse was. My not-so-wise counsel is to avoid rejecting a doctrine simply because it is Catholic. Rather, reject it only after examining the evidence for it - always leaving open the possibility that it is true.
Do you have a catechism? I have a very decent second edition which I would be happy to mail you. If interested, kindly send a PM. Even if you never enter the Church, you really need to know why we believe what we believe.
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steve_b
Guest
2 Peter 3:7-10
does not deny the day a person dies.
b:
I’m not sure why the words “not envisage” are used in that footnote. Especially considering the following passages are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and note footnote 607 (CCC)
*Re: 1 Cor 3: (all emphasis mine)
[15] If any man’ s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. *
From 1031 CCC Purgatory
Enter the Catechism at this paragraph
1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
footnote 607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
ALSO
From Sungenis
ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=382174&language=en
(excerpt and emphasis mine)
"(Scriptures that are understood to be referring to purgatory are: Mt 5:26; 12:32; 12:36; Luke 12:47-48; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 4:18, Ecclesiasticus 24:45; 7:37, Philippians 2:10; Jude 23; Hebrews 12:22b; Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; 2 Maccabees 12:44-47; Rv 21:27. Some examples in which temporal punishment for sin is sustained in this life are: Numbers 20:1-13; 1 Chronicles 21:1-17: 2 Samuel 12:1-23; 1 Cor 11:29-30. Some examples of prayer, penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 4:19.)
Hence, the three divisions of 1 Cor 3:14-17 are describing: heaven (verse 14), purgatory (verse 15) and hell (verse 17)."
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blanchardman
Guest
This verse clearly speaks of entrance into New Jerusalem through which we enter the new heaven and new earth.
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blanchardman
Guest
Yes I have a catechism. Thank you for the offer.
I only reject doctrines for any reason other than it being non biblical.
po18guy
Well-known member
It is good to remember that Jesus did not intend for the faith to be handed on by distributing bibles. Further, the bible itself was never intended to be a complete catalog of Jesus’ teachings or of revealed truth - or to be used as a sole rule of faith. It does not claim to be complete (quite the opposite) and neither does it claim to be any form of sole rule - that was one man’s idea. Scripture is an irreplaceable part of the deposit of faith, but does not contain all that the Apostles handed on. Going further yet, Jesus and the twelve quoted most often from the Septuagint Greek collection of scriptures. The Deuterocanonical books (1&2 Maccabees) are in this collection, 2 Maccabees specifically addressing prayer for the dead and the loosing of sins for those who had died a godly death.
This will sound odd to a Protestant, but ‘bible alone’ limits the believer’s exposure to the entirety of revealed truth. It simply does not contain all revealed truth - numerous passages allude to this, with John 20 and 21 expressing this most clearly. The power of binding and loosing, on the other hand, was clearly and explicitly given by Christ to His Church - and for what purpose? To settle disputes and establish doctrine exactly as recorded in Acts 15. As the mountain of writings claiming to be Christian piled up, that power was later used to declare the canon of scripture.
In any event, the doctrine of purgatory has no bearing upon our salvation, other than to describe a principle by which God works with us and in us. It changes neither heaven nor hell, but reveals how we are purified so as to enter the Kingdom. If the Lord allows us to experience purification by our trials on this earth, is that not 100% consistent with also allowing us to continue and complete our purification as we transition from death into life?
Your greatest challenge, as I see it, is to overcome the doctrine of bible alone - which was never a guiding principle of Christ, or of the faith until 1500s Germany.
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RomanoAmerio
Guest
If the second man in your hypothetical scenario received the Last Sacraments, he would probably go to Heaven “pronto” (as the Italians put it) as well.
As if we can play gotcha with God.
Christ talked of treasures in heaven, and he spoke of both the least and the greatest of the Kingdom.
The last-minute fellow WILL indeed go straight to heaven, but will have the least degree of glory. The long-suffering saint may have some purgatory to go through, but that’s a cleansing. His merits have already gone before him and by the time he enters heaven, his degree of glory will be greater.
Do you really have such a low opinion of God or of the teachings of his Church?
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