Purgatory

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Ginger2 said:
So then, I accept the sacrifice of Jesus so I can get into heaven.

That isn’t what you asked, so you can’t expect to have recieved a complete answer. You’re getting ahead of yourself.🙂

You get into heaven by placing your trust and confidence in Christ’s promises, being baptized, and living your life in obedience to him by the help of his grace. This includes practicing virtue and avoiding sin.

This is the normal way of salvation God has revealed in the Bible. Of course God can make exceptions if he wants to.
But if I want to avoid purgatory I can make a sacrifice every time I sin?
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Ginger2 said:
Gamera, So your answer is “yes”?
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No, my answer is, the question doesn’t really make sense to me because it’s like comparing apples and oranges. Scripture says, “Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name,” Hebews 13:15. Does that mean the author of the Letter to the Hebrews suggests we rely on a “different sacrifice” than Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? Does our “sacrifice of praise” constitute a “different sacrifice”?
 
Post # 6: “our sins have temporal (earthly) consequences that we are obliged to pay for.”

So I can make a mends for my sins - on my own - and go straight to heaven?

Post # 21 - Fidelis, I don’t want to get into the details of how we get into heaven. I want to keep the focus narrow and on purgatory. I understand about baptism, etc.
 
Ginger2 said:
I am trying to reconcile this doctrine of purgatory with Scripture.

Hbr 10:12 Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Like jm was saying, Jews had to offer a sacrifice every time they sinned. But, Jesus offered one sacrifice that was perfect so it covered all sin for all time.

1Pe 3:18 says Christ took the punishment for our sins. So why do Catholics think “we are (still) obliged to pay for” our sins? (post # 6)
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Here we go again. This is why I dislike discussing Purgatory with Protestants on these boards. The preconception is already firmly in place and almost everything you say is ignored.

Please go back and read Post #6. The Bible makes a distinction between the eternal consequences for sin, and the temporal punishment due to them. I have given you the example from Scripture about David and Bathsheba and the kid that broke the window. Someone else gave you an example of someone stealing a dollar.

With all due respect, why is it so hard for some Protestants to grasp this incredibly simple, biblical concept? If you don’t agree with it, so be it. But don’t just ignore it or be in denial by not addressing the Catholic answer at all.
 
So I can make a mends for my sins - on my own - and go straight to heaven? (post #23)
 
Ginger2 said:
Post # 6: “our sins have temporal (earthly) consequences that we are obliged to pay for.”

So I can make a mends for my sins - on my own - and go straight to heaven?
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Nothing we do on our own can make amends for the eternal consequences of sins. Only Jesus’ shed blood can do that. If by “making amends” you’re asking about temporal consequences of forgiven sins (penance), yes, a person could do sufficient penance in this life so that they wouldn’t need to go to purgatory. Scripture tells us that penance done in this life has great value. “Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins,” 1 Peter 4:8. If the concept of penance were untrue then there’d be no way for love to “cover a multitude of sins.”
 
So I can make amends for my sins - on my own - and go straight to heaven? (post #23)

I get what you are saying. You don’t get what I am asking…

How are the old sacrifices made obsolete it Jesus sacrifice doesn’t cover our sins in that way, but only opens the door to heaven?

If we are still “obliged to pay for” them. (post # 6)

Are you saying that we still need the sacrifices but that God changed the criteria for the sacrifice?
 
Sorry Gamera, We were posting at the same time. I am tired and going to bed.

“a person could do sufficient penance in this life so that they wouldn’t need to go to purgatory.”

I would like to discuss this tomorrow, tho.
 
Fidelis said:
Here we go again. This is why I dislike discussing Purgatory with Protestants on these boards. The preconception is already firmly in place and almost everything you say is ignoredl.
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I know what you mean. “Isn’t Christ’s sacrifice enough?!” :eek:

But if it is “enough” (in their understanding), why do we all still die? And why do some still go to heaven? And why is faith required for salvation? Those all sound like add-ons to Christ’s sacrifice, but Protestants don’t object to them. What they object to ferociously, though, is the concept of God’s final mercy, purifying the imperfect-yet-saved upon death in order to enter heaven. Like that’s a bad thing. :rolleyes:
 
Ginger2 said:
Post # 21 - Fidelis, I don’t want to get into the details of how we get into heaven. I want to keep the focus narrow and on purgatory. I understand about baptism, etc.
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You made a statement about the Catholic belief in heaven and I corrected it. If you mistate the the Catholic position on something I’m going to correct it. If not for you, at least for others who might be misled if it is just left to stand.

If you want to just ask about Purgatory, you should limit your remarks to Purgatory. Keep in mind, however, that the reality of Purgatory is so closely connected to that of heaven (since everyone in Purgatory will go to heaven) it is almost impossible to speak of one without referring to the other.
 
Ginger2 said:
So then, I accept the sacrifice of Jesus so I can get into heaven.
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That’s what you join the Catholic Church for, and why you participate actively in the life of the Church. Accepting Jesus is just the first step in joining the Church and becoming an active, participating member.
But if I want to avoid purgatory I can make a sacrifice every time I sin?
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No, if you want to collect an Indulgence to release a soul from Purgatory, you already have to be in a state of grace - you can’t be in a state of sin, at the time that you do the action that merits an Indulgence to get someone (either yourself, or someone who is already in Purgatory) out of Purgatory.
 
Fidelis, “You made a statement about the Catholic belief in heaven and I corrected it”

I realize my statement was incomplete. But I am not asking about that part. I want to focus on purgatory.

Sorry if I sounded critical. I did not mean it that way. I just don’t want to go off in too many direction.

Besides, I actually agree very closely to the Catholics on the getting into heaven part. There is no point in me be thorough in telling you what you already know.

On the other hand, If you feel brief mentions without clarity will confuse others, go ahead and explain. 👍
 
jm, “No, if you want to collect an Indulgence to release a soul from Purgatory, you already have to be in a state of grace - you can’t be in a state of sin, at the time that you do the action that merits an Indulgence to get someone (either yourself, or someone who is already in Purgatory) out of Purgatory.”

WOW! I now understand why Catholics are so big on praying to saints asking them to pray for us!!!

The saints are already in a state of grace. So their prayers are acceptable to God.

So, the only real time a Catholic can pray or do any thing else for a loved they think may be in purgatory, would have to be right after confession. Correct?

If I was praying to get my sister out of purgatory, how will I know when she is released? Seriously, It would be silly for me to continue praying and offering indulgences for her after she joins Jesus.
 
Ginger2 said:
So, the only real time a Catholic can pray or do any thing else for a loved they think may be in purgatory, would have to be right after confession. Correct?
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Nope. I think you need to stop playing dumb with comments like these.
If I was praying to get my sister out of purgatory, how will I know when she is released? Seriously, It would be silly for me to continue praying and offering indulgences for her after she joins Jesus.
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You have a very restricted understanding of the benefits of prayer, especially the benefits to the one praying.
 
Vocimike,

My understanding of prayer is not limited. I started this thread so I can understand the Catholic view.

So what you mean to say is that the Catholic view of prayer is not that limited.

Quote ME:
If I was praying to get my sister out of purgatory, how will I know when she is released? Seriously, It would be silly for me to continue praying and offering indulgences for her after she joins Jesus.
Quote YOU:You have a very restricted understanding of the benefits of prayer, especially the benefits to the one praying.

Why not answer the question? Or would you like me to guess?

Here is my guess: You aren’t praying for a specific loved one, but all those who are still in purgatory. So it doesn’t matter when your loved one is released, because there are always souls stuck in purgatory.

Did I get it right?
 
Quote YOU:You have a very restricted understanding of the benefits of prayer, especially the benefits to the one praying.

Or perhaps you mean it is irrelevant whether the person I am praying for is still in purgatory because prayer is good for me.
 
BTW, Thank you for telling me to “quit playing dumb” It must mean you think I am too smart to ask such dumb questions.

I took a Bible study several years ago and even tho I was a little concerned the others would think I was “dumb” for asking questions, I decided it was more important for me to learn about God, than to worry about what people think.

But I am GLAD you don’t think I’m dumb.
 
Vocimike,

Quote:ME: So, the only real time a Catholic can pray or do any thing else for a loved they think may be in purgatory, would have to be right after confession. Correct?
Quote YOU: Nope. I think you need to stop playing dumb with comments like these.

Are you saying, that your prayers are good indulgences even if you are not in a state of grace, but other indulgences are only good when you are in a state of grace?

If so, why?
 
Ginger2 said:
Here is my guess: You aren’t praying for a specific loved one, but all those who are still in purgatory. So it doesn’t matter when your loved one is released, because there are always souls stuck in purgatory.
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Good guess, although “stuck” is probably not an accurate word. In practice, all Catholics are encouraged to pray, not only for their loved ones and others they know who have ended this life, but also “for the poor souls in Purgatory who have no one to pray for them.”

It is part of the Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints that we have concern for all those in the Body of Christ, whether still on this earth, or in Purgatory making that final *entre *into heaven. No prayer is ever wasted.
 
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