Purgatory?

[AllSaints1631]

To me the idea of Purgatory is to believe that the sacrifice of Christ washes away some of our sin but doesn’t make us perfect in the eyes of God therefore renderring us declined status for entrance into Heaven. This does not square up with what Scripture tells us in my opinion.

 

[peary]

To me the idea of Purgatory is to believe that the sacrifice of Christ washes away some of our sin but doesn’t make us perfect in the eyes of God therefore renderring us declined status for entrance into Heaven. This does not square up with what Scripture tells us in my opinion.

Look, when you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and are baptized, ALL of your previous sins committed by you in your life as well as the stain of Original Sin are washed away. Baptism places you on the road to sanctification but it is not sanctification. That is a lifelong process. Yes, we are now Christ’s own because, in the Catholic view, Baptism also leaves an indelible imprint on us which connects us to Christ through His grace in a very personal and direct way.

If you say that the sacrifice of Christ makes us perfect in the eyes of God and that it guarantees us entry to Heaven, then why be baptized at all? Why strive for it at all? I hate the notion of “cheap grace” - which is what you are alluding to. That is a major difference between some protestant interpretations of Scripture and the Church’s understanding of its own Scripture since apostolic times. There is nothing in Scripture which specifically tells us that ALL of our sins, past, present, and future, are forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. They are forgiven when we cooperate with that sacrifice directly.

I HAVE BEEN SAVED (past event) - Romans 8:24 “for in hope we were saved”
Ephesians 2:5,8 “by grace you have been saved through faith”
2 Timothy 1:9 “he saved us, called us, according to his grace”
Titus 3:5 “he saved us through bath to rebirth,” renewal by Holy Spirit.

I AM BEING SAVED (present process) - Phil 2:12 “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”
1 Peter 1:9 “as you attain the goal of your faith”, salvation

I WILL BE SAVED (future event) - Matthew 10:22 “he who endures to the end will be saved”
Matthew 24:13 “he who perseveres to the end will be saved”
Mark 8:35 “whoever loses his life for my sake will save it”
Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Romans 5:9-10 - sinced we are justified, we shall be saved
1 Corinthians 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire
1 Corinthians 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
Hebrews 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to bring salvation

 

[AllSaints1631]

Look, when you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and are baptized, ALL of your previous sins committed by you in your life as well as the stain of Original Sin are washed away. Baptism places you on the road to sanctification but it is not sanctification. That is a lifelong process. Yes, we are now Christ’s own because, in the Catholic view, Baptism also leaves an indelible imprint on us which connects us to Christ through His grace in a very personal and direct way.

If you say that the sacrifice of Christ makes us perfect in the eyes of God and that it guarantees us entry to Heaven, then why be baptized at all? Why strive for it at all? I hate the notion of “cheap grace” - which is what you are alluding to. That is a major difference between some protestant interpretations of Scripture and the Church’s understanding of its own Scripture since apostolic times. There is nothing in Scripture which specifically tells us that ALL of our sins, past, present, and future, are forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. They are forgiven when we cooperate with that sacrifice directly.

I HAVE BEEN SAVED (past event) - Romans 8:24 “for in hope we were saved”
Ephesians 2:5,8 “by grace you have been saved through faith”
2 Timothy 1:9 “he saved us, called us, according to his grace”
Titus 3:5 “he saved us through bath to rebirth,” renewal by Holy Spirit.

I AM BEING SAVED (present process) - Phil 2:12 “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”
1 Peter 1:9 “as you attain the goal of your faith”, salvation

I WILL BE SAVED (future event) - Matthew 10:22 “he who endures to the end will be saved”
Matthew 24:13 “he who perseveres to the end will be saved”
Mark 8:35 “whoever loses his life for my sake will save it”
Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Romans 5:9-10 - sinced we are justified, we shall be saved
1 Corinthians 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire
1 Corinthians 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
Hebrews 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to bring salvation

I think we agree on more than what it seems. I agree that Baptism puts us on the road to santification. It’s not “automatic” as some Protestants suggest. My point though is where does the idea of further purification come in after death? We can easily get into the Santa Clause theory here. God knows our heart as well as our actions.

 

[peary]

I think we agree on more than what it seems. I agree that Baptism puts us on the road to santification. It’s not “automatic” as some Protestants suggest. My point though is where does the idea of further purification come in after death? We can easily get into the Santa Clause theory here. God knows our heart as well as our actions.

**Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the *Mourner’s Kaddish *for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians. **

**The word purgatory is not found in Scripture yet it does not disprove its existence or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory. **

Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

**Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine. **

**It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. **

 

[AllSaints1631]

**Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the *Mourner’s Kaddish ***for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

The word purgatory is not found in Scripture yet it does not disprove its existence or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

**Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test?

“He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15).

That’s totally an opinion call and it is not a ridiculous one because it does make some sense but the problem is that I don’t believe that it squares with Scripture in my opinion.

 

[peary]

That’s totally an opinion call and it is not a ridiculous one because it does make some sense but the problem is that I don’t believe that it squares with Scripture in my opinion.

It’s all about YOU now, isn’t it?

 

[AllSaints1631]

It’s all about YOU now, isn’t it?

No, that’s not so. It is all about Scripture.

 

[peary]

No, that’s not so. It is all about Scripture.

You cannot separate Scripture from the Church that gave you the Scriptures.

You cannot divorce Scripture from the Church just as you cannot divorce the Church from its own Scriptures. Otherwise, you’ll end up like the other 60,000+ protestant sects and denominations which ALL claim that THEY EACH have the correct ‘Truth’.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You cannot separate Scripture from the Church that gave you the Scriptures.

You cannot divorce Scripture from the Church just as you cannot divorce the Church from its own Scriptures. Otherwise, you’ll end up like the other 60,000+ protestant sects and denominations which ALL claim that THEY EACH have the correct ‘Truth’.

Protestants just love to divorce Scripture and the Church…

 

[peary]

Protestants just love to divorce Scripture and the Church…

Of course they do. Why do think, eventually, they accepted ‘divorce’ as legitimate?

 

[AllSaints1631]

You cannot separate Scripture from the Church that gave you the Scriptures.

You cannot divorce Scripture from the Church just as you cannot divorce the Church from its own Scriptures. Otherwise, you’ll end up like the other 60,000+ protestant sects and denominations which ALL claim that THEY EACH have the correct ‘Truth’.

Now wait a minute, to say that the Catholic church gave us the Scritures is to say that Paul and James and all those that authored books in the Scriptures and even Jesus himself whose preachings are recorded in Scripture are all Roman Catholic.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Of course they do. Why do think, eventually, they accepted ‘divorce’ as legitimate?

Scripture speaks of allowable divorce.

Divorce if your wife does not obey you (Sirach 25:26).

 

[AllSaints1631]

Protestants just love to divorce Scripture and the Church…

You seem to be quite sure of everything you say. I am not Protestant.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You seem to be quite sure of everything you say. I am not Protestant.

What are you? A Catholic Christian, or Orthodox Christian?

 

[peary]

Now wait a minute, to say that the Catholic church gave us the Scritures is to say that Paul and James and all those that authored books in the Scriptures and even Jesus himself whose preachings are recorded in Scripture are all Roman Catholic.

EXCUSE ME LOL Early Christian communities and Church councils are what compiled the Canon of Scripture for us. And Paul and James and all those that authored the books in the Scriptures were members of ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church, as is recorded in ACTS. This is the Church Jesus founded, and of which we (Catholics AND Orthodox) are members.

 

[AllSaints1631]

EXCUSE ME LOL Early Christian communities and Church councils are what compiled the Canon of Scripture for us. And Paul and James and all those that authored the books in the Scriptures were members of ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church, as is recorded in ACTS. This is the Church Jesus founded, and of which we (Catholics AND Orthodox) are members.

But to say that the Catholic and Orthodox church for that matter are the same today as they were then would be a total misconception of history and truth.

 

[peary]

But to say that the Catholic and Orthodox church for that matter are the same today as they were then would be a total misconception of history and truth.

To say that our civilization are the same today as they were 100 years ago would be a total misconception of history and truth.

To say that science is the same today as it was 100 years ago would be a total misconception of history and truth.

To say that music and art is the same today as it was 100 years ago (even a thousand years ago!) is a total misconception of history and truth.

And to say that the Catholic and Orthodox churches of today are not the ‘same’ as they were ‘then’ (when is ‘then’? And were they not one? Are they not holy today as back then? Are they not apostolic as they were back then?) would be not only a total misconception of history and truth, it would be a revision and fabrication of history and truth.

When did Christ abandon His Church? Give a specific date, time, and place that point to when Christ abandoned His Church.

 

[andzy]

When did Christ abandon His Church? Give a specific date, time, and place that point to when Christ abandoned His Church.

That’s easy. The answer is: never.

 

[w_stewart]

Now wait a minute, to say that the Catholic church gave us the Scritures is to say that Paul and James and all those that authored books in the Scriptures and even Jesus himself whose preachings are recorded in Scripture are all Roman Catholic.

They were essentially Catholics. Jesus founded the Church which the apostles were the first members. The Church Jesus founded was later named “Catholic” by St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John the Evangelist.

 

[steve_b]

As an Orthodox Christian I don’t believe exactly what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory, but we Orthodox do believe that we need to overcome in this life via struggling within God’s free gift of Grace all our sins and tendencies towards sin.

I believe the Catholics do agree that Jesus did die on the Cross to free us from all sin, but that they realize that we are all given free will and that free will can in our way of accepting total forgiveness.

Orthodox see sin more as a disease - it can be cured fully, but once cured, just as in the body, the individual has to choose to stop eating bad foods, stop smoking, etc. they need to take their vitamins so to speak, to completely turn around and amend their lives so this disease doesn’t come back. Some people just take the cure without amending their lives and the disease comes back and can kill you or it may not kill you, but your still sick again.

Likewise, when we die if we have not completely purified our souls/bodies from sin after receiving the “cure” of Jesus’ death of on the Cross, then we end up unworthy to enter into Heaven as we have made themselves spiritual sick again.

Now Orthodox view is this person cannot enter Heaven.

The Catholic view is that this person can enter Heaven, but only after being fully healed of the soul’s illness (purged) through fire/purgatory.

The Catholic view is more Merciful.

What’s your view…Is it that free will taken out of the perspective and the person once receiving the “cure” is unable to choose to sin or be in anyway effected by sin?

To make this disease analogy a little more understandable: My friend Linda has been using drugs on & off since she was a teenager. For the last year and 1/2 she’s been homeless protituting herself for drugs. A week ago she resurfaced sober ready to amend her life. She struggled and got the drugs out of her system. She went to Church and went to Confession. She was physically healed of the drugs and was spiritual healed as well. Yet, still having free will, yesterday, she chose to do drugs again and is back on the streets. When sin becomes a habit, a passion, it is difficult to completely uproot from our bodies/souls…it time for us to overcome these habits/passions. Until we die, we continue to have choices in life - our choices effect our current life and our eternal life. **Jesus did everything He could possibly do to reunite us with Himself - yet we continue to have all these choices with which we can choose against Him at any time **(God forbid! Well, NO, God gives us freedom = He cannot forbid us from leaving Him.) I hope this helps you in your understanding.

My compliments to your well reasoned example. I have a question (ref: what’s in red). What is the Orthodox position for a person’s destination if one dies spiritually sick minus mortal sin (recognizing Catholic and Orthodox may have differences in our understanding of mortal and venial sin)?

On the old forum (which can’t be accessed anymore) this was discussed but I can’t remember now what the answers were.