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Mannyfit75
Guest
It’s a mystery. I know as an, Orthodox Christian, you love the word mystery.
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manualman
Guest
Fire is an analogical image, not a scientific description of conditions there. But Purgatory will not be necessary after the second coming and the end of the world, after the last soul is sanctified to the point where he can enter heaven without ruining the place!
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Marina14
Guest
This doesn’t answer the question: Do Catholics see the Purgatory Fire as the Eternal Fire of God’s Eternal Love which en"light"ens the elect and burns the damned which souls who are a part of the elect, but not fully cleansed of all impurities feel the burning temporarily or do they simply see the Fire itself as temporary? Again, I’m looking to find unity between Orthodox and Catholic doctrine.
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steve_b
Guest
Nicely said.
When we die, our souls still have
- memory,
- intellect
- and will.
Otherwise, we would have no concept of anything. And unless we are miraculously perfect our entire life carried forward till death, these properties we carry with our souls are disordered because of sin. And that disorder needs to be perfected in us before ever entering heaven. Otherwise as you say heaven wouldn’t be heaven. And besides God has already said nothing uncleen will enter heaven.
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manualman
Guest
Frankly, I’m not educated enough to know for sure what portion of what I’ve learned is illustrative theological explanation and which part is defined dogma, so please don’t take me as the final word here.
I doubt that the formal definitions in latin theology actually define the NATURE of the purging ‘fire’ or the question about whether the ‘fire’ continues eternally but the suffering only as long as there are ‘combustable materials’ so to speak in the soul of the individual. As far as I know, the essential teachings on Purgatory would not be compromised by seeing the fire as eternal, but the suffering caused by it only temporary until such time as what I believe y’all call ‘divinization’ has progressed beyond a certain point (removal of what we call concupiscence, the affinity for sin).
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Marina14
Guest
The Orthodox Church Fathers understood the Catholic Church to be defining the Fire of Purgatory to be a separate and different Fire from Hell in the 1200 or 1400’s which The Orthodox Church Fathers found to be against the Traditions of the Church & the Early Church Fathers. I was thinking after reading on the subject from the Orthodox point of view that perhaps through bad translation they misunderstood what the Catholic Church was trying to convey.
The reason this is so important is if we’re ever going to try to unify the Churches (Orthodox & Catholic) then we’re going to need to establish common ground on Catholic Dogma such as this. But if the Orthodox Father’s understanding was correct then there is NO WAY that there could ever be union because just as the Orthodox argued hundreds of years ago, the Early Church, the Churches Traditions nor the Scriptures speak of two fires.
I was hoping for unity on this issue just as the Coptics who split off centuries ago because they denied the 2 Natures of Christ 1 which is fully human and the other which is fully God. Yet, now they say the 1 Nature they believe in is both fully human and fully God. Catholics & some of the Coptics have since reunited saying that their current belief of 1 Nature being at the same time fully Human and fully God is pretty much the same belief as the 2 Natures, just expressed in a different way.
As far as deification or theosis which you refer to as divinization is still believed and taught by Eastern Catholics in full union with Rome. Just check out the Melkite Greek Catholic Church’s website: www.melkite.org. This Church is in full union with Rome and describes some of the differences in this way:
“The difference is that we are a risen people - we don’t pray to save our souls - and we don’t wonder if we have merited heaven by enough , piety , study and actions that are prescriptions for Western church models of spiritual development. In our tradition we are already in the Kingdom and our edict is not to save ourselves but to grow in divinity. Our tradition is not one of rules and recipes or ‘how to’s’, placing all the burden on what man has to do ‘to get to heaven when he dies’, but an experiential faith built on relationship with God-Trinity, that transforms and makes us ‘new creatures’ as we open ourselves to God in prayer and receive His deifying love. We do not have to live in doubt as to the ultimate reality of what will happen to us when we die – heaven or hell? The choice is ours. We exercise our free will to choose to become like God or to close God out and become locked in a prison of our own self-centeredness, where the only face we see for all eternity is our own. When we are self-centered, it is impossible for us to love. We must transcend ourselves, move out of ourselves to love. God makes it easy for us to do this and grow by sharing the burden with us. In our church we call this reciprocity between God and man ‘synergy’. God works within us as we consciously center on God in our hearts. That is why our tradition is contemplative not activist. In silence, deep, focused prayer, we allow God to transform us into His ‘likeness’ and move us outward in ‘diakonia’ (service) to others. This process continues for all eternity. It doesn’t end with physical death. Religion is relevant for living now and for all eternity. These are spiritual laws for success in this life and beyond. For Melkites, there is no difference between natural and supernatural. The supernatural is natural for us! We don’t have to suffer now and wait for physical death in order to experience the joy of heaven.”
Back to the subject of Purgatory - Melkite Greek Catholics although in union with Rome do not believe in such a thing as Purgatory. The rest of Orthodoxy is not willing to come into union with the Roman Catholic Church until the Roman Catholic Church does away with this and other false teachings.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I want to make this clear, this doctrine of Purgatory is not false teachings. I think you just misunderstood what it is.
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manualman
Guest
Marina, I hear what you are saying. And for a good number of individual catholics, it may even be true. It can APPEAR that the theological emphasis of catholicism is one of rules to follow in order to ‘earn’ heaven. But that has never been the genuine teaching. You used the word merit, but look closely at what that word really means. It is quite different than ‘earn’ in that earn describes an objective achievement, whereas merit is a subjective judgement. God’s judgement in this context. When you understand the word that way, I hope the texts become clearer.
I was worried I had the wrong word with ‘divinization’ - thanks for the education.
I was worried I had the wrong word with ‘divinization’ - thanks for the education.
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Vincent
Guest
???
When we declared our union with Rome - in consistency with Apostolic tradition interrupted somehow by historical circumstances - we accepted the Catholic faith in its entirety. We do recognize the authority of the Pope of Rome, including universal jurisdiction and infallibility for whatever concerns faith and morals. It is true that the Western Theologians themselves have their own debates concerning these points; so we should not be “more papist that the Pope;” but Catholic is Catholic and truth is truth. We cannot pose as “Orthodox united to Rome” only for what suits us. I do mean it when we pray every day, at the Divine Liturgy, for “unity of faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit.”
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123zab
Guest
The Roman Church teaches that purgatory is a place in which souls who depart in this life and are in God’s grace suffer for a time because they still need to be cleansed from venial sins. They may still have to pay the punishment due to mortal sins, even though the guilt and eternal punishment of which may have been remitted.
An indulgence is the remission granted by the Catholic Church f or the punishment due to sin that has already been forgiven. The disturbance caused by that sin can be atoned for by penance, suffering, or good works. An indulgence granted to the souls in purgatory may shorten the stay in that punishment or lessen the severity of it.
The Modern Catholic Dictionary defines purgatory as follows:
“The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they enter Heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning f or the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same f or all, but apportioned to each person’s degree of sinfulness. Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth. Nor are the pains incompatible with great peace and joy, since the poor souls deeply love God and are sure they will reach heaven. As members of the Church Suffering, the souls in purgatory can intercede for the persons on earth, who are therefore encouraged to invoke their aid. Purgatory will not continue after the general judgement, but its duration for any particular soul continues until it is free from all guilt and punishment. Immediately on purification the soul is assumed into heaven.” (pg. 152)
In other words, the Roman Catholic Church believes that there are many who upon death do not go to heaven, but to a place of punishment were they must pay for their sins. Those of their faith on earth can pray to them for intercession and should pray for them that they may not suffer long before advancing to heaven.
It is also held that persons on earth can provide different means of “payment” for the punishment due for their own sins as well as the sins of the deceased through prayers, penances, acts of charity (giving of money), or good works.
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The Bible has a lot to say against these false teachings. As we have seen, we cannot redeem anyone else (Psalm 49:7-8). After death comes the judgement, not purgatory! (Hebrews 9:27). The word “purgatory” is not found in the Bible. The doctrine of purgatory is not taught in the Holy Scriptures. We cannot be redeemed by money!**
The first epistle of Peter states, “You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver and gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of the Lamb, unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1:18-19) See also Isaiah 52: 3, 55:1; Acts 8: 20.
The total cleansing of our sins was performed by the one time sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross of Calvary! (See Gal. 2:1-11; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 9:1-11; Romans 8:1). Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise!” (Luke 23:43).
“And when you were dead in your transgression and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us… We has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life” (John 5:24).
by Benny D
An indulgence is the remission granted by the Catholic Church f or the punishment due to sin that has already been forgiven. The disturbance caused by that sin can be atoned for by penance, suffering, or good works. An indulgence granted to the souls in purgatory may shorten the stay in that punishment or lessen the severity of it.
The Modern Catholic Dictionary defines purgatory as follows:
“The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they enter Heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning f or the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same f or all, but apportioned to each person’s degree of sinfulness. Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth. Nor are the pains incompatible with great peace and joy, since the poor souls deeply love God and are sure they will reach heaven. As members of the Church Suffering, the souls in purgatory can intercede for the persons on earth, who are therefore encouraged to invoke their aid. Purgatory will not continue after the general judgement, but its duration for any particular soul continues until it is free from all guilt and punishment. Immediately on purification the soul is assumed into heaven.” (pg. 152)
In other words, the Roman Catholic Church believes that there are many who upon death do not go to heaven, but to a place of punishment were they must pay for their sins. Those of their faith on earth can pray to them for intercession and should pray for them that they may not suffer long before advancing to heaven.
It is also held that persons on earth can provide different means of “payment” for the punishment due for their own sins as well as the sins of the deceased through prayers, penances, acts of charity (giving of money), or good works.
**
The Bible has a lot to say against these false teachings. As we have seen, we cannot redeem anyone else (Psalm 49:7-8). After death comes the judgement, not purgatory! (Hebrews 9:27). The word “purgatory” is not found in the Bible. The doctrine of purgatory is not taught in the Holy Scriptures. We cannot be redeemed by money!**
The first epistle of Peter states, “You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver and gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of the Lamb, unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1:18-19) See also Isaiah 52: 3, 55:1; Acts 8: 20.
The total cleansing of our sins was performed by the one time sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross of Calvary! (See Gal. 2:1-11; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 9:1-11; Romans 8:1). Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise!” (Luke 23:43).
“And when you were dead in your transgression and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us… We has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life” (John 5:24).
by Benny D
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manualman
Guest
Sorry Benny D, but you are reading Church teaching through protestant eyes, vocabulary and theology. No wonder you object so strongly. Punishment in Purgatory is not a penal system or a judicial sentence. In fact, our modern American sense of punishment is actually a distortion of what the word originally meant.
In Catholic tehological writings, punishment is rather what a loving Father gives to a naughty child in order to instruct him, purify him and refine his character. If you have kids, I sure hope you can see the difference!
In Catholic tehological writings, punishment is rather what a loving Father gives to a naughty child in order to instruct him, purify him and refine his character. If you have kids, I sure hope you can see the difference!
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BrewMax
Guest
Really?? Maybe you could show us where the Bible speaks of it.The Pope cannot just “retire” a doctrine of the faith taught since the beginnings of the Church. He just doesn’t have the authority to do any of the kind. (And I don’t know of anybody who has such authority.)
Well, a truly Bible-believing and Spirit-filled believer would already believe it.
But here’s a link you can take a look at to begin with: catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
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BrewMax
Guest
I do not agree with your premise here. God does not inflict people with pain and punishment. It is not Biblical to suggest such a thing. God may allow a situation to continue for a believer to become aware of something but he does not torture people.
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mikeledes
Guest
Hebrews 12:6-11
** “ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it**.
Isaiah 48:10
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
God Bless,
Michael
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BrewMax
Guest
So this is your Biblical proof that God inflicts people with pain and tortures them?
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mikeledes
Guest
“Torture” has a very negative connotation. When God disciplines or “refines” us, it involves pain.
1 Corinthians 11:29-32
**For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. **
Being weak and sick are certainly “painful” experieces.
Psalm 6:1
1 O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your anger,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure.
2 Samuel 12:7-15
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’”
13 So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”
And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die.” 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
That sounds like punishment to me?
God Bless,
Michael
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manualman
Guest
This is known as a straw man argument. You are making up characteristics of catholic teaching that do not exist, then tearing it down. How tidy.
If you are a christian, you must already know the pain of repentence and confession. Did God “inflict this pain on you?” No, you inflicted it on yourself. So it is with Purgatory. God does not inflict pain on the pour souls. They experience the pain of realizing the full consequences of the sins of their lives and the effects it has had on others and themselves. In this way they become genuinely different before they enter heaven.
Did you know it was common practice in Judaism at the time of Jesus to pray for the dead? Funny how neither Jesus nor apostle ever casts any apersions on such a ‘false and unbiblical’ practice. I wonder why they fell down on the job so badly?
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De_Maria
Guest
Hi,
Thanks for asking,
You may be confusing that with “limbo”. Limbo is the Augustinian idea that unbaptized children do not go to heaven or hell, but someplace in between.
The origin of Purgatory?
We trace it to the ancient Jewish custom of praying for the dead.
Second age-related custom is not as lovely. This is the KADISH - the lamentation on the dead. According to the custom, the male firstborn reads the KADISH prayer over his dead father’s grave, in order to help open the gates of heaven for him.
en.allexperts.com/q/Israel-211/Jewish-customs-anciently.htm
In our Scriptures, which still contain the 7 Apocryphal (Deuterocanon, as we call them) books, it is written:
2 Machabees 12
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
No problem.
I hope so.
If we go back to Scrpture, Luke 16 gives us an example of a soul beseeching Abraham for the welfare of his brethren:
Luke 16
27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Note how the dead Rich Man is still beseeching and therefore interceding for his brethren.
This is an example of the interceding which we believe occurs in Purgatory on our behalf. We also intercede on behalf of their souls. The reason for all this intercession is in imitation of Christ who is our model (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Peter 2:21). He intercedes for us therefore we intercede for each other:
1 Timothy 2
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
I hope the helps,
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Marina14
Guest
Hi!
Actually where you read the word merit on the post was the quote I was giving directly from the Melkite Greek Catholic’s official website - which was defending their differences with the Roman Catholic Church with whom they are in full union.
Hope you have a great day!
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Marina14
Guest
I wasn’t writing for me personally, but what the Orthodox Church has said.
Personally, I think that if the fire described is not a second fire, then perhaps it could be true.
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