Purgatory?

[BMSODM]

Nothing impure can enter into the Kingdom of God (Revelations 21:27).

Every person will have to pay for their sins to “the very last penny” (Luke 12:59).

I’ll use somewhat of a parable to explain purgatory. God is just per Scripture (John 5:30), correct? Now, let’s say you have one man who leads a saintly life and another who leads a sinful life, but sincerely repents of his sins on his death bed. According to Protestants, both these men go straight to Heaven after death. Is this just? I would have to answer in the negative. According to Catholic belief, the saintly man would go straight to Heaven whereas the repentant man would have to be cleansed of the temporal (not eternal) punishment for his sins before entering Heaven. Where is this done? He can’t be sent to Hell because Hell is eternal per Scripture (Matthew 25:46; Mark 3:29). There has to be a “middle ground” so to speak. This “middle ground” is Purgatory. We must suffer for our sins just as Christ suffered for them (Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 1:5-7). If this suffering is not in this life, it has to be in the next.

Protestants say that since Purgatory is not mentioned “by name” in the Holy Bible, it doesn’t exist. But the “Trinity” is not mentioned in the Bible either yet almost all mainstream Protestant denominations believe in it. Unfortunately, the King James version of the Bible mistakenly omits the Books of Maccabees. These books were decided by the Church Fathers to be inspired of God. The Twelve Apostles used the Septuagint (Greek) canon - almost every single quote from the Old Testament that is cited in the New is from the Septuagint - this canon includes the First and Second Books of Maccabees (as well as five others). It is clear that praying for the dead to release them from the reparation of their sins is good according to the first Biblical verse quoted at the top of this page
.
With repentance comes reparation for sins such as “sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:21; Luke 10:13).

Why did God give St. Paul the pain of the stigmata (Galatians 6:17) if there is no reparation for sins?

Why did St. Paul pray for a dead friend (Onesiphorus), if there is no Purgatory (2 Timothy 1:16-18)?

 

[Metaron]

Did Jesus blood wash away all my sins or just some of them?

Did Jesus die to pay the penalty for just some of my sins or for all of them

He did, and thank God that He did die for all our sins. Purgatory doesn’t erase sins. It purges the temporal effects of sin and the sin-inclination. Our sins are already forgiven, and we are no longer sentenced to eternal damnation; temporal punishment, whether on Earth or in Purgatory, remains.

 

[AllSaints1631]

He did, and thank God that He did die for all our sins. Purgatory doesn’t erase sins. It purges the temporal effects of sin and the sin-inclination. Our sins are already forgiven, and we are no longer sentenced to eternal damnation; temporal punishment, whether on Earth or in Purgatory, remains.

can you prove this by anything else other than the teachings of the magisterium?

 

[Mannyfit75]

can you prove this by anything else other than the teachings of the magisterium?

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Purgatory cannot be gotten from Scripture without seriously reading into the passages. If it were truly in Scripture then why did it not come about until the 5th century?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Purgatory cannot be gotten from Scripture without seriously reading into the passages. If it were truly in Scripture then why did it not come about until the 5th century?

The earliest is is from 2 Maccabees. Judas prayed for dead soldiers so their sins may be loose from them.

2 Macc. 12:42-45:

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. 43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Commentary: - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Maccabees was written around 161 BC.

I also like to add another verse. Phillipians Chapter 2 verse 6-11

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

Jesus name is confessed on in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. What could this third place be? It isn’t hell because no one confesses that the Lord is Jesus. It is purgatory, my friend. This belief is ancient. It was there before you were born.

Matt. 12:32

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

– Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Purgatory is **not found in Scripture **but there are Scriptural verses that support it just like the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity? Well that’s not in Scripture either. It was until 180 AD that Trinity came about. Tertillian came up with it by the 3rd Century, the Church defined the Trinity in 325 AD.

If it were truly in Scripture then why did it not come about until the 5th century?

AllSaint,

If you go by that logic, you might as well throw away the Trinity too because it didn’t came about until the 3rd Century.

 

[Metaron]

can you prove this by anything else other than the teachings of the magisterium?

This is exactly what the Catechism plainly states! Ugh. Why do you try on purpose to misconstrue the teachings of the Church? Why do you have a vendetta against it? Every Catholic theologian I know states this.

 

[AllSaints1631]

The earliest is is from 2 Maccabees. Judas prayed for dead soldiers so their sins may be loose from them.

2 Macc. 12:42-45:

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. 43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Commentary: - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Maccabees was written around 161 BC.

I also like to add another verse. Phillipians Chapter 2 verse 6-11

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

Jesus name is confessed on in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. What could this third place be? It isn’t hell because no one confesses that the Lord is Jesus. It is purgatory, my friend. This belief is ancient. It was there before you were born.

Matt. 12:32

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

– Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This** “prison”** is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Purgatory is **not found in Scripture **but there are Scriptural verses that support it just like the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity? Well that’s not in Scripture either. It was until 180 AD that Trinity came about. Tertillian came up with it by the 3rd Century, the Church defined the Trinity in 325 AD.

AllSaint,

If you go by that logic, you might as well throw away the Trinity too because it didn’t came about until the 3rd Century.

That is simply not true. The whole premise of the trinity can be easily derived from Scripture. Purgatory cannot. Verses taken out of context is all there is for support there. St. Paul even said before his death thay he was torn to either be with Christ which would be much better or to remain with the people. He never mentioned anything about going to Purgatory.

 

[De_Maria]

That is simply not true. The whole premise of the trinity can be easily derived from Scripture. Purgatory cannot. Verses taken out of context is all there is for support there. St. Paul even said before his death thay he was torn to either be with Christ which would be much better or to remain with the people. He never mentioned anything about going to Purgatory.

Because St. Paul went straight to heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Mannyfit75]

That is simply not true. The whole premise of the trinity can be easily derived from Scripture. Purgatory cannot. Verses taken out of context is all there is for support there. St. Paul even said before his death thay he was torn to either be with Christ which would be much better or to remain with the people. He never mentioned anything about going to Purgatory.

How am I taking it out of context? It was the Church who defined what the Trinity is? I don’t get you, AllSaint. Purgatory is a process more than a place. The belief of the Purgatory was not mention in Scripture, nor the concept of the Trinity. For one you don’t see Three Divine Persons but One God in the Bible. There are Scriptural verse to support the position. In fact the word Trinity derives from the Latin word trinitas which Theophilus wrote about mid-to late 100 AD.

I think most Sola Scriptura like yourself failed to look at the belief. Tell me in Philippians, what is the third place where Jesus’s name is praised, and worship?

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. (Phillipians Chapter 2 verse 6-11)

This this under earth hell, or Purgatory. I know for a fact it isn’t hell because God is not worship there.

Give me a straight answer, AllSaint.

I don’t want to hear I am taking it out of context. I want to use common sense logic here. If you say it isn’t hell what is it then?

In Matt. 12:32, it states the following, and I’m even using the Greek word here, so I know I am not taking this out of context.

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Again in the following passage:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This** “prison”** is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Wikipedia has a good information on the how this developed:

Church** teaching on purgatory is based** on the practice of praying for the dead, a practice followed by Christians from the beginning, one too that is mentioned in the Second Book of Maccabees, which Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox consider to be part of the Bible, while the writings of Paul the Apostle include what may be a prayer by him for a dead person.

Prayer for the dead, in the belief that the dead are thereby benefited, remains part of the practice not only of the Roman Catholic Church, but also of all the other ancient Christian Churches, even those that do not accept the Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory. In particular, the Latin, Greek, Coptic, Syrian, and Chaldaean Churches of ancient tradition offer the Eucharist on behalf of the dead.

In addition to prayer for the dead, it is traditional to "do good works and labours of faith and love for them."Practices performed to assist them include almsgiving on their behalf and fasting and other penitential acts. To such prayers and good works, whether done for the performer’s own benefit or for the good of other persons, living or dead, the Catholic Church attaches indulgences, granted from the “treasury of merits” (Christ’s and the saints’), “at times remitting completely and at times partially the temporal punishment due to sin … (urging) to perform works of piety, penitence and charity — particularly those which lead to growth in faith and which favour the common good. And if the faithful offer indulgences in suffrage for the dead, they cultivate charity in an excellent way.”

The imagery of fire has long been common, and has links tradition to certain texts of Scripture, in particular to 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7, which also speak of fire, whether material or metaphorical.[27] Although no dogmatic statement describes a material fire in the context of purgatory,[28] the imagery of fire has long been common in the West. St. Augustine stated that the pain caused by purgatorial fire is more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life[2], and Gregory the Great mentioned those who after this life “will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames,” adding “that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life”. St. Bonaventure (1221 – 1274) also stated that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life.

As with heaven[33] and hell,[34] purgatory is often spoken of as a place to which one goes or where one is.[35] But as Pope John Paul II declared when stating that “the term (‘purgatory’) does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence”, Church teaching does not endorse the idea of a place within physical space for purgatory…

Purgatory has not been fully defined as a place. The Catholic Church hasn’t defined as such. It does state that it is a condition of existence. This is more complex for a mere average Christian to comprehend. I think, and goes deep with theology of the after life.

The exhortation of **Saint John Chrysostom **(349– c. 407) bespeaks this practice:

“Let us then give [the dead] aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? (Since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others)… Let us not then be weary in giving aid to the departed, both by offering on their behalf and obtaining prayers for them: for the common Expiation of the world is even before us. … and it is possible from every source to gather pardon for them, from our prayers, from our gifts in their behalf, from those whose names are named with theirs. Why therefore do you grieve? Why mourn, when it is in your power to gather so much pardon for the departed?”

 

[Mannyfit75]

On the Eastern Catholicism as well as Eastern Orthodox, a theologian said:

As a general rule, all Eastern Christians do not use the word “Purgatory.” This includes both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The word “Purgatory” is specific to the Latin tradition, and carries some specific historical baggage that makes Eastern Christians uncomfortable… In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning “purgatory”:

1. There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven

1. prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points.

 

[Metaron]

The Church Fathers on Purgatory:

Clement of Alexandria

The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

Origen

If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Abercius

The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213]).

Cyprian

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

 

[Metaron]

John Chrysostom

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).

Ambrose of Milan

Give perfect rest to thy servant Theodosius, that rest which thou hast prepared for thy saints… I have loved him, and therefore will I follow him into the land of the living; nor will I leave him until by tears and prayers I shall lead him wither his merits summon him, unto the holy mountain of the Lord (Funeral Sermon of Theodosius 36-37 [A.D. 395]).

Augustine

There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).

 

[steve_b]

Metaron,

Thanks for putting the quotes together. Particularly

Metaron:
The Church Fathers on Purgatory:

Origen

:
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).

1. 
   *]AllSaints can’t accuse the Catholic Church of inventing purgatory in the 5th century OR reading into scripture rather than from **1 Cor 3:13-15 **. Origen writes 85 years after the last apostle (St John) dies.
   *]What AllSaints is not recognizing, is that there is a process of purification after death but **before heaven **for only those who ARE saved… It’s NOT for the unsaved. St Paul talks about it very clearly in that passage from Corinthians…

 

[Metaron]

*]AllSaints can’t accuse the Catholic Church of inventing purgatory in the 5th century OR reading into scripture rather than from **1 Cor 3:13-15 **. Origen writes 85 years after the last apostle (St John) dies.
*]What AllSaints is not recognizing, is that there is a process of purification after death but before heaven for only those who ARE saved… It’s NOT for the unsaved. St Paul talks about it very clearly in that passage from Corinthians…

Yeah, I totally agree. I don’t know why, but Allsaints is hell-bent on persuing their vendetta against the Catholic Church, just like JimR in the other thread, The End of the 60’s is Near.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Yeah, I totally agree. I don’t know why, but Allsaints is hell-bent on persuing their vendetta against the Catholic Church, just like JimR in the other thread, The End of the 60’s is Near.

Can you show it to me? I mean seriously, let’s cut to the chase with it. Pulling this verse out with that passage to try and glue together an argument doesn’t cut. I think at the end of the day, you would have to admit that Purgatory ultimately comes via the Magisterium not from Holy Scripture. Even Fr. Pacwa agreed that this is true.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Metaron,

Thanks for putting the quotes together. Particularly

The Church Fathers on Purgatory:

Origen

1. 
   *]AllSaints can’t accuse the Catholic Church of inventing purgatory in the 5th century OR reading into scripture rather than from **1 Cor 3:13-15 **. Origen writes 85 years after the last apostle (St John) dies.
   *]What AllSaints is not recognizing, is that there is a process of purification after death but before heaven for only those who ARE saved… It’s NOT for the unsaved. St Paul talks about it very clearly in that passage from Corinthians…

1. 
   The whole premise of Purgatory denies Jesus Christ of the full credit that he paid for our sins in full on the cross. He paid it all and that my friend is Scripture. I am one Catholic that will never buy into the biggest money making scam ever devised by the church.

 

[Metaron]

The whole premise of Purgatory denies Jesus Christ of the full credit that he paid for our sins in full on the cross. He paid it all and that my friend is Scripture. I am one Catholic that will never buy into the biggest money making scam ever devised by the church.

Are you moronic? I don’t believe so. I think you’re just refusing to accept what has been already stated:

Purgatory does not remit sins, it eliminates the temporal effects of sins already forgiven. Look it up in the Catechism!

And secondly, going to Protestantism isn’t going to help you; they believe in “Purgatory” as well; they just call it “glorification” and say it happens instantaneously, and isn’t a process like in Catholicism.

Thirdly, the doctrine is based on the Church Fathers, Tradition, and the proto-doctrine of the Scriptures.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Are you moronic? I don’t believe so. I think you’re just refusing to accept what has been already stated:

Purgatory does not remit sins, it eliminates the temporal effects of sins already forgiven. Look it up in the Catechism!

And secondly, going to Protestantism isn’t going to help you; they believe in “Purgatory” as well; they just call it “glorification” and say it happens instantaneously, and isn’t a process like in Catholicism.

Thirdly, the doctrine is based on the Church Fathers, Tradition, and the proto-doctrine of the Scriptures.

Regardless, it is a false teaching. It cannot be proven in Scripture and did not exist before the 5th Century. Deny it all you want but prove it. Show me where Christ taught it in his preachings. Where does Paul teach it? Truth: Christ didn’t preach it or teach it, Paul didn’t preach it or teach it. It doesn’t exist. It was invented to become the biggest money making fear scam in the history of the Catholic church primariliy for the building of St. Peter’s.