Pushed to the SSPX

  • Thread starter Thread starter DorianGregorian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There’s a Carthusian-priest church closeby. I called and asked for Mass times and they told me they don’t speak English and hung up. But I decided to find out and go there anyway. As it turned out it was a OF Latin Mass with Polish sermon and readings. They were right, no English. 🙂
Now that’s funny.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I’m surprised they let you in. There are some Carthusian houses where they don’t allow the laity into their church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If any parish has watchdogs, this one does. It is not a matter of nitches.
Can you say the same about all parishes? They always seem to be “experimenting” with different things, hoping to draw new parishioners, around my neck of the woods.

Again, that’s fine with me. I’ve taken a few marketing classes and I have a lot of ideas I can present myself but I’m going to refrain. In my opinion we’ve gone too far already because we haven’t learned the lessons of Babel.
 
Now that’s funny.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I’m surprised they let you in. There are some Carthusian houses where they don’t allow the laity into their church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I wore a disguise. 🙂

No, seriously, I found out through the diocese. It was a 6:30am Mass with not too many people, I picked up a missal, and just played along. And no, my name isn’t Michaele Salahi. 😃
 
Can you say the same about all parishes? They always seem to be “experimenting” with different things, hoping to draw new parishioners, around my neck of the woods.

Again, that’s fine with me. I’ve taken a few marketing classes and I have a lot of ideas I can present myself but I’m going to refrain. In my opinion we’ve gone too far already because we haven’t learned the lessons of Babel.
I can safely say that in my many years as a religious I have only seen two masses that raised my eyebrows. I’ve seen many silly things, but only two events that I consider to be catastrophic. I don’t like everything I see, but as long as it’s allowed, that’s fine by me. The Church can’t please me all the time. Heck, my own religious order can’t please me all the time. If I had my choice, I would change the color of our habit. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I can safely say that in my many years as a religious I have only seen two masses that raised my eyebrows. I’ve seen many silly things, but only two events that I consider to be catastrophic.
Ok, Brother, you can’t leave us hanging like that. 😉

What were they???
 
I wore a disguise. 🙂

No, seriously, I found out through the diocese. It was a 6:30am Mass with not too many people, I picked up a missal, and just played along. And no, my name isn’t Michaele Salahi. 😃
Is it a Charter House or a mission of some kind that the hermits serve?

I have never seen Carthusians celebrate mass with anyone in attendance. Usually their church is inside the enclosure and no one is allowed in. Or is this a Chater House where the church is outside of the enclosure?

I was just wondering, because we have some houses where the chapel is inside the enclosure and no one is allowed to enter. Some where the chapel has a door from outside the enclosure. The EWTN chapel is like that. They have a door that comes in from the street and another door from the friary. Technically, the chapel is outside the enclosure. Though they do have another chapel inside where they celebrate the community mass. It’s very tiny.

BTW, I never knew there were Polish Carthusians in the USA. I thought they were all Americans.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
\Again, that’s fine with me. I’ve taken a few marketing classes and I have a lot of ideas I can present myself but I’m going to refrain. In my opinion we’ve gone too far already because we haven’t learned the lessons of Babel.\

**Seems YOU haven’t learned the lesson of Babel.

As the Bible says, “All the world was of one language and of one speech.”

Notice there were not different languages, even at worship!

This unity of langauge (one size fits all, if you like) led them to become uppity and rebellious against God!

Having different languages was God’s idea to start with. Compare this with what happened at Pentecost, when those of “one language and one speech” were led by God to proclaim His works and praises in OTHER langauges.

The lesson of Pentecost is that ALL langauges are liturgical!**
 
\
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
Properly, a “one mass fits all” would be the Eastern discipline, where there is ONE Divine LIturgy PER PRIEST PER ALTAR on Sunday. Period.

Pro Vobis: When I travel East, I’ll remember that. \

**Guess what? This discipline is observed in Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) in the USA as well. (Admittedly, it’s also breached as often.)

The problem with two Sunday liturgies in one parish church is you wind up with two different congregations, as others here have already mentioned.

As far as “people from both sides” attending the same Mass in WW2, what good does it do to worship at the same altar, and then kill each other outside the Church? This makes a mockery of the Mass, too.

The Latin way is NOT the only way. Deal with it.**
 
As for the “legitimate ministry” quote from the Pope, it is really nothing new. He is simply stating that the situation of the Society has not yet been regularized and they do not yet have a juridical structure. The Society itself would admit as much.
If the Society admitted as much, it would not be “ordaining” priests, nor setting up “chapels” since it has absolutely no authority to do so.
Nevertheless the Pope’s own Pontifical Commission has stated it is not a sin to assist at their Masses out of devotion to the TLM.
This pertains only to lay people - the priests are in a state of grave disobedience. If the lay people had any pity, they would not put the priests in the position of feeling that they “have to” minister to them. Indeed, if they had no congregations, they would probably become motivated to get themselves regularized, so that they could get legitimate jobs in the Diocese.
 
There is one important point that has been mentioned here, which I had put out of my mind. However, it is true. When speaking about any organization that is in the situation in which the SSPX finds itself, it is important to remember that the rules that apply to the laity are not the same as those that apply to the clergy. The reason is simple. The theology of the laity and the theology of Holy Orders address different states in the Church. Canon Law has to build on the proper foundation. It cannot create laws for the laity based on the theology of Holy Orders or of religious life. The law will make certain concessions to the laity that it does not make for clerics and vis a vis.

It’s also important to remember that the Society is a secular society. It is not an Institute of Consecrrated Life. Therefore, it will not have the same freedoms that religious orders and religious congregations of Pontifical Right have. Nor will it be exempt from certain points in canon law as are religious orders of men. One of those points is the issue of ordination. In religious orders of men the bishop has no authority over whom he ordains. He must ordain whomever the major superior calls forth for Holy Orders. In addition, the major superior grants faculties to the ordained members of his religious institute in their own chapels. A secular society cannot do this. They don’t have a religious superior. Canonically, the bishops of the SSPX are not religious superiors, since they are not consecrated religious. They are bishops, but they are not religious. Therefore, they do not have jurisdiction in the diocese of another bishop. Whereas, religious superiors have canonical jurisdiction in their own chapels, oratories, universities, hospitals, schools, friaries, monasteries, houses of formation and any other fixed place that belongs to the community. They don’t need the local bishop’s approval for certain things such as hearing confession in their chapels. It is only when they set foot in the bishop’s terrain that they need faculties from him.

A good example that I can give from my own religious family is our colleges. We have several universities around the world. Take any of the Franciscan universities. No bishop can deny faculties to any of our friar priests to hear confessions on our campuses. The highest ranking authority is not the bishop, but the major superior. The bishop can suspend any of our friars from functioning in his diocese, but no in any of our own facilities. This is not the case with the Society, because they are secular, not exempt religious.

Interestingly enough, if it were not for the superceding suspension by Rome, any religious superior coudl grant an SSPX priest faculties to hear confessions in a religious house or an institution that belongs to a religious order. You don’t have to belong to the order. You just have to be on their turf. Theoretically, the major superior of Franciscan University could grant an SSPX priest full faculties while on campus, if the suspension had been imposed by a bishop. When it comes to Rome, that changes things. All religious orders are subject to obey the Holy See, except in those areas where the Holy See has exempted them. Those are found in the constitution of each religious order.

For example, when the Motu Proprio released the TLM, it specifically mentions that religious priest must have the permission of their major superior and that such permission can be given according to the norms of the religious institute. Whereas, the Motu Proprio said that any priest can celebrate the TLM, but it has one single clause in it that excludes regular priests. That’s an example where the religioius is exempt from implementing a mandate by the Holy See. The Society does not have this coverage.

Therefore what is said about the laity being able to fulfill their Sunday oblgiation at an SSPX chapel does not mean that the SSPX priests can celebrate mass licitly. We have a similar situation in my community. We cannot witness marriages except with the permission of the local bishop, not even in our own chapels. We can hear confessions and absolve. But witnessing marriage is not allowed to us, except with permission of the local bishop and it must take place in a diocesan chapel or parish, not one of our own. We cannot baptize in our chapels without the permission of the local pastor, because our chapels are not parishes. We have no way of recording the baptism. We must get the local pastor’s permission to baptize in one of our chapels and record the baptism in his parish. It would make sense that an SSPX chapel must follow the same rules, since they are not canonical parishes. Therefore, if they baptize without the permission of the local pastor, it is valid, but ilicit. It begs the question, what is the home parish of the new baptized? You must belong to a parish community, except in the case of an emergency. If the SSPX chapels say that they are keeping records of baptisms and first communions, then this creates another problem. Are they chapels or are they parishes? If they are parishes, who erected them? Only diocesan bishops can erect parishes. No bishop can erect a parish in a diocese that’s not his own.

There are the little complexities that do not apply to the laity, but do apply to the clergy. What was said above about the difference in rules for the clergy and the laity is a valid point.

Fraternal prayer for this holy season,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Is the Vatican really allowing Pope Pius masses to be said by the Society at the Vatican?
Yes; these are being celebrated by the Pope’s own Order - the FSSP.

The SSPX is in no way involved with these.
 
We cannot baptize in our chapels without the permission of the local pastor, because our chapels are not parishes. We have no way of recording the baptism. We must get the local pastor’s permission to baptize in one of our chapels and record the baptism in his parish. It would make sense that an SSPX chapel must follow the same rules, since they are not canonical parishes. Therefore, if they baptize without the permission of the local pastor, it is valid, but ilicit. It begs the question, what is the home parish of the new baptized? You must belong to a parish community, except in the case of an emergency. If the SSPX chapels say that they are keeping records of baptisms and first communions, then this creates another problem. Are they chapels or are they parishes? If they are parishes, who erected them? Only diocesan bishops can erect parishes. No bishop can erect a parish in a diocese that’s not his own.
This I didn’t know. But what about the liceity of Lutheran baptisms or even atheist’s baptisms which are validly administered. Is the liceity issue even applicable? I suppose the parents may want to press charges but what is the Church going to do, excommunicate the atheist and the godparents? 🙂
 
This I didn’t know. But what about the liceity of Lutheran baptisms
These are recorded in the Lutheran parish records. If the person later becomes a Catholic, the record from the Lutheran church is transferred to the parish where the person receives his Confirmation and First Holy Communion.
or even atheist’s baptisms which are validly administered.
If an atheist baptizes, it’s because someone desiring baptism is in grave and immediate danger of dying - typically in a hospital or on the field of war. In the case of war-time baptism, it is recorded with the military chaplain if the person lives, and in the case of hospital baptisms, they are recorded with the hospital chaplain, who records them with the territorial parish of the hospital.
 
If an atheist baptizes, it’s because someone desiring baptism is in grave and immediate danger of dying - typically in a hospital or on the field of war. In the case of war-time baptism, it is recorded with the military chaplain if the person lives, and in the case of hospital baptisms, they are recorded with the hospital chaplain, who records them with the territorial parish of the hospital.
So I’m okay with being a godfather to someone baptized in a non-denominational church? Just checking.
 
Br. JR –

Sorry to go off on a tangent for a moment, but others may have the same question. A few posts back you mentioned something about brothers hearing confessions. You also said that a couple brothers are priests.

Could you clarify your use of “brother”? Does it mean any fellow Franciscan, whether ordained or not? Because there is also a canonical use of “brother” such as the Christian Brothers, where they take vows, but it is not the sacrament of Holy Orders.

thanks!
 
Giuseppe:

Whatever is approved for the Ordinary Form of the mass cannot be “despicable” regardless of how people feel about it. The Holy See would not approve of something despicable and declare it to be the Ordinary way of celebrating the Eucharist. If one feels that something that is approved by the Holy See to be despicable, then one has a duty to distance himself from that opinion. To hold on to it is to believe that the Holy See would approve something despicable for worship. That is not possible. It may be something that a person is uncomfortable with. I grant you that, but not despicable.

When the Ordinary Form is celebrated as it was written it is quite beautiful. Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but I can count on one hand the number of times that I have seen anything out of the ordinary in the Ordinary Form. The cookies and cream thing cannot be that common. I’ve been a religious for a long time and have served in five diocese and three countries. I have seen little things go wrong, but earth shattering, I can only remember two times in 42 years as a Catholic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother,

I did not say the OF was despicable, and I would never use that adjective for an approved rite of the church. You and friend Newt need to read posts more carefully.

I spoke of “practices” that are despicable, which as I told Newt, may not bother one or seem out of the ordinary to one who was not brought up in the pre-Conciliar church. Here are a list of some of those practices - please feel free to tell me which of these were approved by the Holy See and which you would deem acceptable:
Code:
*  Girls in mini-skirts or very short dresses in singing groups on the altar
*  turning one's back to the tabernacle to reverence the "table" with no consecrated species present
*  Full-voiced socializing and a lack of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament before and after Mass
*  Shorts, sports jerseys, and flip-flops at Sunday Mass
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top