Yet none of those things are officially taught by the Catholic Church. You are rightfully upset at folks who take it upon themselves to do those things, and the leadership which doesn’t speak up about those things.
You mean as a sponsor for them to come into the Catholic Church? Sure, why not?
I find it curious that you have not posted since starting this thread.
Correct, but ‘not officially condemned’ is as good as ‘officially taught’. One wonders where the priests were formed that allow this or the bishops that permit it in their diocese?
This is an important question that you’re asking and the answer should be known by all Catholics. Canon law only applies to Roman Catholics. Baptisms that take place outside of the Roman Catholic Church are not subject to the same rules, even those that take place in Eastern Catholic Churches. There is an entire code of law for the Eastern Churches. There are points that overlap, those dealing with doctrine and dogma. But the points on discipline are often different.This I didn’t know. But what about the liceity of Lutheran baptisms or even atheist’s baptisms which are validly administered. Is the liceity issue even applicable? I suppose the parents may want to press charges but what is the Church going to do, excommunicate the atheist and the godparents?
Gosh, the Catholic Church doesn’t officially condemn me from standing on my head during Mass. I guess that means that it “officially teaches” us to do so…
There’s very little chance my godchild will come into the Catholic Church. Too much bad press or something.
I doubt that they are actually on the Altar - you mean they are up near the front of the Church, right? And yes, rightly, they should be in the Choir Loft at the back of the Church, not calling attention to themselves - however, some priests, for “pastoral” reasons, think that putting the kids up front to sing helps them feel more connected to the parish.
Who is doing this? The priest, or some of the children, or who?
We have a priest who doesn’t even reverence the Altar.Not to mention the unbelievable amount of gum-chewing that goes on in Church. However, these are very small things.
In the parish I am thinking of, they’re are in the area we would normally call the ‘sanctuary’ if such a delimitation can still be understood. That would be to the left of the altar with the right-most band members in front of the pulpit. Not gathered around the table, but certainly front-and-center and distracting.
Everyone, parishioners, choir members, priest, and deacon.Who is doing this? The priest, or some of the children, or who?
BINGO!!! This appears the universal modern answer as to why priests are loath to correct and/or chastise from the pulpit. Ignoring these abuses is rarely, if ever, a problem at an SSPX, or in all fairness, at an FSSP Mass.
You never specified what you found to be despicable. Taken from the context of the thread, it led me to believe that you found the entire form or parts of the form to be despicable. The only thing in what you mentioned that is part of the Ordinary Form is the veneration of the altar.
The rest of what is on your list is certainly inappropriate behavior and there are many people, including pastors who have concerns about those things. It is not fair to make sweeping statements.
A very good question. In the Franciscan Order you enter to become a friar. You do not enter any of the Franciscan orders to become a priest. You can be a priest without being a Franciscan. Therefore, the formation of Franciscans, our life and our rule targets the consecrated life, not Holy Orders.
I know that I’m going to get slammed on this. Jesus as God incarnate was also a human being. He joked. He enjoyed festivities. He enjoyed children. He walked around as a normal person enjoying the “fun” of life. He is God…but did not put himself in a position that required those around him bowing to him at every moment. We must be respectful of His presence in the Eucharist…but He does not demand continual pious behavior. Sure…clowns as extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist is not appropriate. Showing disrespect toward the Eucharist is sacralige. But Jesus is our brother as well as our God.You never specified what you found to be despicable. Taken from the context of the thread, it led me to believe that you found the entire form or parts of the form to be despicable. The only thing in what you mentioned that is part of the Ordinary Form is the veneration of the altar.
Yes, the rubrics do call for the clerics to kiss the altar at the beginning of mass, even though the Blessed Sacrament is not present. The reason is that the altar is the cross where the sacrifice will be offered. It is proper and required by liturgical law that the altar be venerated. The GIRM also requires that one bow before the altar when crossing the sanctuary or the church from one side to the other, even if there is no tabernacle in the church. The bow is omitted by the cleric who is going to read the Gospel. The reason is that the pulpit is considered the “table of the Word” in the OF If you’re going over to the pulpit, the focus should be on that.
Turning one’s back on the tabernacle is part of the Ordinary Form, since you are facing the people and the tabernacle is behind you, unless you are celebrating the mass ad orientem, in which case you’re facing away from the people. The Ordinary Form does allow you to turn your back on the tabernacle when you’re at the altar. The normal way to proceed, if the tabernacle is in the center of the sanctuary is to genuflect before entering the sanctuary and then proceed up to the altar, facing the people, and venerate the altar. Sometimes, if the sanctuary is large enough, thee is room to step into the sanctuary and genuflect before venerating the altar. If the tabernacle is on the side, even if it is visible, which it should be, you do not genuflect. The reason is that it is not within the sacred space where the focus of the liturgy is. But when the tabernacle is in the main sanctuary you do genuflect before proceeding to venerate the altar. The point is that the altar must be venerated in the Ordinary Form.
The rest of what is on your list is certainly inappropriate behavior and there are many people, including pastors who have concerns about those things. It is not fair to make sweeping statements.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I don’t think you’ll get slammed. While all of what you say is true, I think much of the reverence that the Church calls for is especially important when other folks are around, it order to set a good example.
Yep. I realize I am new to this Catholic thing, but I was under the impression that Catholics have a ancient tradition of reverence and piety, and that “Buddy Jesus”-style worship is more the specialty of evangelical and pentecostal Protestants.
Clown masses are definitely disgraceful. I did little checking on that clown Mass. Apparently that bishop is not in very good standing with the Church. I don’t want to make a claim that isn’t true…but he may not even be in a position to say Mass any longer.
We have to know a little history here. It was not until St. Francis came around that the tabernacle was ever on the main altar of the sanctuary. Most European Churches belonged to monasteries. In monasteries the Blessed Sacrament was kept on a side altar or a separate Blessed Sacrament chapel. It was Francis of Assisi who moved the tabernacle to the main altar. There were reasons for this. First, was his devotion to the Eucharist. He wanted it to be where it could be seen. The other was that our community is not an order of monks. Therefore, we did not have churches. We had chapels and oratories attached to our houses. They were very small; therefore, there were no side altars. Francis of Assisi could not imagine having a chapel without a tabernacle. He asked the local bishop for permission to place the tabernacle on the main altar.
Bottom line for me is that Jesus is our brother and our God. I always show reverence at Mass. I always show reverence before the tabernacle outside of Mass. I am lucky enough to live near a large church that always has Eucharistic adoration. Unfortunately I don’t take advantage of it enough. I find that when someone talks of turning their back to the tabernacle as irreverent…that is going beyond what is expected. In our parish the tabernacle is in the sanctuary…genuflecting while initially passing it is reverent. Genuflecting at every time you cross its path is just not needed. Jesus knows what is in our heart.
A question that I think fits well in this last post of yours. Was not the ringing of bells during consecration a means to let people in the smaller chapels be aware that the bread and wine was being consecrated in another part of the cathedral or church?We have to know a little history here. It was not until St. Francis came around that the tabernacle was ever on the main altar of the sanctuary. Most European Churches belonged to monasteries. In monasteries the Blessed Sacrament was kept on a side altar or a separate Blessed Sacrament chapel. It was Francis of Assisi who moved the tabernacle to the main altar. There were reasons for this. First, was his devotion to the Eucharist. He wanted it to be where it could be seen. The other was that our community is not an order of monks. Therefore, we did not have churches. We had chapels and oratories attached to our houses. They were very small; therefore, there were no side altars. Francis of Assisi could not imagine having a chapel without a tabernacle. He asked the local bishop for permission to place the tabernacle on the main altar.
This practice became very popular as the friars spread through Europe. They did not build large cathedrals. They built small chapels that later were erected as parishes. The Franciscan idea of silence in the presence of the tabernacle was very different from what is being espoused here. It was never in Francis’ mind that speaking was offensive to the Blessed Sacrament. The friars have always spoken in our chapels. In those of our houses where there is no meeting room, the chapter takes place in the chapel. It is usually the only room that can accomodate everyone when you have brothers come in from the other houses.
There was another reason for the silence. One observes silence before the Blessed Sacrament because it is a sacred space where man should enter into contemplation and dialogue with the Divine. Anything that distracts from that practice should be avoided. The presence of Christ in the tabernacle should draw us into dialogue with him.
It is not about sin or sacrileges. Francis’ idea, when he first placed the tabernacle on the altar, was about great love for Jesus. It was a very positive idea. We tend to focus too much on the negative and forget to encourage the contemplative. One can be in total silence, but not be in contemplation. Where is the good to the soul? Where is the love for Christ if all one has to do is be physically silent, while one’s mind wanders about mundane thoughts?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Far from it. The Protestants took that form of spirituality from the Catholic mystics. The Catholic mystics have always written and spoken about their friendship with Jesus. St. Teresa used to play the guitar for him and she also scolded him.
That was a later development. The earliest development is rather humorous. The monks would get up in the middle of the night to pray, usually around 12:00 am. They’d go back to bed and rise again at about 4:45 am. They would remain awak the rest of the day. The mass was always the last thing before breakfast. By the time the mas came around, usually around 6:30 or 7:00 the monks had been up for a while and sitting in silence in the chapel.