Pushed to the SSPX

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What in the world does SSPX stand for anyway and how do you even find a church like that.? I’m not intending on going but just wonndering about all the complicatedness and all.
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius X (the tenth)” and it has an irregular standing in the Church at present. You would find your local chapel by comparing those churches that call themselves “Catholic” in your telephone directory, and comparing it to the list provided by your Bishop. Those not on the list provided by your Bishop are likely to be SSPX chapels.
 
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius X (the tenth)” and it has an irregular standing in the Church at present. You would find your local chapel by comparing those churches that call themselves “Catholic” in your telephone directory, and comparing it to the list provided by your Bishop. Those not on the list provided by your Bishop are likely to be SSPX chapels.
Whoa. Just nasty.
 
Which people? Which theological differences are under dispute?
I don’t know where, but back there somewhere, an interview with the Archbishop was posted. In the interview he brought up his theological concerns.

What I have been trying to say throughout this thread, maybe not as well as it can be said, is that these issues were not what created the problem. The separation of the SSPX is the result of the ilegal ordinations. Had there been obedience to the rule regarding the ordination of bishops, there would be no separation

But now we find ourselves in the current situation, trying to achieve reconciliation. We must work toward that. From my point of view, which can be mistaken, but I believe that the real discussioin is how to help those who are going to be unhappy with the results of these talks.
Charity demands that we think about these people too. We need to redirect our attention to them. They will need us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Well, then, why bring discussions and points that are not pertinent to the situation into the discussion at all?

I have to admit I am completely flummoxed by 90% of the points that Br. JR introduces to the discussion, as they don’t have anything to do with the actual situation and only serve to derail conversation about it; then he turns around and asks us why we are discussing what we’re discussing. 🤷
In fairness to JR, I just finished going back through the thread.

The first time anyone posted anything on doctine were post 189 and 190. Neither was JR.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6088347&postcount=189

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6088379&postcount=190

Post 189 was the first mention of doctrinal issues, but post 190 was nothing but a laundry lists of gripes and the real derailment. But such is the way of these threads.
 
In fairness to JR, I just finished going back through the thread.

The first time anyone posted anything on doctine were post 189 and 190. Neither was JR.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6088347&postcount=189

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6088379&postcount=190

Post 189 was the first mention of doctrinal issues, but post 190 was nothing but a laundry lists of gripes and the real derailment. But such is the way of these threads.
Is doctrine the same as theology? 🤷
 
Is doctrine the same as theology? 🤷
Doctrines and dogmas are stated in theological language and discussed using theological language. Another way of saying it is, doctrine is discussed within a specific branch of theology. It’s usually called Systematic Theology. A doctrinal discussion is always a theological discussionl, but not the other way around. For example, morals are another area of theology, the soul is another, and so forth.

I hope that helped.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have to say, what on earth are we talking about? It seems we have drifted so much I am not sure what the original subject even was…
 
I know the idea of humble obedience is contrary to the way modern man thinks, but it is the only thing that will assure unity within the Church.
Oh, there are those old protestants and Orthodox again. What is a Catholic debate without being compared to these groups?

I do not remember anyone mentioning Archbishop Lefebvre being in the place of St. Peter, or holding his keys.

I will post an old post of mine here on obedience, just for discussion purposes:
  1. Regarding Obedience
    From the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911:
With regards to its nature:
“Religious obedience, therefore, does not involve that extinction of all individuality, so often alleged against convents and the Church; nor is it unlimited, for it is not possible either physically or morally that a man should give himself up absolutely to the guidance of another. The choice of a superior, the object of obedience, the authority of the hierarchical Church, all exclude the idea of arbitrary rule.”

With regards to its limits:
“The commands of superiors do not extend to what concerns the inward motion of the will. Such at least is the teaching of St. Thomas (II-II, Q. cvi, a. 5, and Q. clxxxvi, a. 2). Obedience is not vowed absolutely, and without limit, but according to the rule of each order, for a superior cannot command anything foreign to, or outside, the rule (except in so far as he may grant dispensations from the rule).”

This paragraph is in regards to professed religious, however since laity are not bound by vows to their superiors, this goes double for them!

Further it states:
“On the other hand the obligation to obedience to superiors under God admits of limitations. We are not bound to obey a superior in a matter which does not fall within the limits of his preceptive power.”

This is sticky, because one has to be able to interpret whether a given matter is in the power of the person in question.

And finally:

"All authority to which we bow has its source in Him and cannot be validly used against Him. It is the recognition of the authority of God vicariously exercised through a human agent that confers upon the act of obedience its special merit. No hard and fast rule can be set down for determining the degree of guilt of the sin of disobedience. Regarded formally as a deliberate scorning of the authority itself, it would involve a divorce between the soul and the supernatural principle of charity which is tantamount to a grievous sin. As a matter of fact many other things have to be taken account of, as the greater or lesser advertence in the act, the relatively important or trifling character of the thing imposed, the manner of enjoining, the right of the person who commands. For such reasons the sin will frequently be esteemed venial. "

In Summa Theologica, Q.33 Art 4, St. Thomas Aquinas tells us that "if the faith is endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence Paul, who was Peter’s subject, rebuked him in public, on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning the faith, and, as the gloss of Augustine says on Gal. 2:11: “Peter gave an example to superiors that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects”.

In a real life example, we see St. Godefrey of Amiens, St. Hughes of Grenoble and Guy of Vienne (who later became Pope Calixtus II ) writing to Pope Pascal II, who was wavering concerning “the investitures”: “If, what we absolutely do not believe, you would choose another way and would - God forbid - refuse to confirm the decisions of our paternity , you would force us away from obeying you.” (Bouix, Tract, de Papa, T. II, p. 650).

In short summary, therefore, I relay a Spanish proverb: “Obedience is the servant of Faith, not Obedience.”
  1. With regard to receiving the sacraments from a suspended priest, if one accepts the above, than it may follow in the minds of some faithful that the issue is of sufficient gravity to receive the Sacraments from a suspended priest, if they feel their Faith is otherwise endangered.
We see this in Canon 144 of the 1983 Code:
§1. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the
Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.

In the eyes of SSPX supporters, where these is probable doubt with regard to their ordinary avenues of sacramental life, in theory the SSPX could be their valid alternative.
Whether or not they were correct is irrelevant to the fact that they had reasons, however subtle they may be, to believe they were justified and behaving in a Catholic manner.

SSPX supporters could also theoretically appeal to Canon 1335:
“…If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament or sacramental or an act of governance; a person is permitted to request this for any just cause.”

If SSPX supporters feel they have just cause, they would be justified.

I will also add here what Pope Leo XIII wrote:

Encyclical Libertas Praestantissimum, June 20,1888:

“If, then, by any one in authority, something be sanctioned out of conformity with the principles of right reason, and consequently hurtful to the commonwealth, such an enactment can have no binding force of law.” And a little further on, he says: “But where the power to command is wanting, or where a law is enacted contrary to reason, or to the eternal law, or to some ordinance of God, obedience is unlawful, lest while obeying man, we become disobedient to God.”

Again, if the SSPX felt this was true in the current situation, they would be justified. No necessarily right, but justified. They are not out of line for doing so.
 
Oh, there are those old protestants and Orthodox again. What is a Catholic debate without being compared to these groups?

I do not remember anyone mentioning Archbishop Lefebvre being in the place of St. Peter, or holding his keys.
No one said that except me. I never implied that Lefebvre thought himself Pope. I only was explaining that* I* do not follow this man because he does not hold the keys of Peter nor sits in his chair. I follow the one that does.

I know that you see exceptions to this, but I do not. That is all I meant. You may see the advantage to following this Society, I do not. I know who I will follow and who leads the Church. It is he that I will follow. I spent most of my life thinking I could just take the Bible and figure everything out for myself. I will not do that as a Catholic.

You think that you have what it takes to do that for yourself, that is your decision.
 
Originally Posted by jmcrae
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius X (the tenth)” and it has an irregular standing in the Church at present. You would find your local chapel by comparing those churches that call themselves “Catholic” in your telephone directory, and comparing it to the list provided by your Bishop. Those not on the list provided by your Bishop are likely to be SSPX chapels.
Good morning, ibkc. I’m afraid it is quite a difficult topic, and I have found over the years that people of goodwill find themselves on both sides of the fence on the question, "Are the SSPX true and loyal Catholics, and can their actions be justified?”

Here is my account of the matter. I have lived through it all. I have tried to be as fair and objective as possible. In fact, it is not really possible to discuss the topic of this thread properly without some such background.

RUN-UP: THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL
At the Second Vatican Council, a programme of novelty was presented as a binding obligation on the Catholic Church, including the adoption of attitudes and principles that are not only alien to the Church, but had been specifically condemned in the strongest terms for over two centuries by the popes. A group of 250 bishops at the council fought strenuously against this, saying that it was betraying the Faith. A careful reading of the documents shows some consistent changes from everything the Catholic Church has produced before:
*The previous teachings and documents, which contradict these novelties, are nowhere mentioned.
*Words are used without defining their meanings.
*After what seems like clear and direct teachings, it is found that open-ended loopholes are provided that make it possible to ignore almost everything that has bee said.
*Although the council repeatedly stated that it was to ‘update’ the Catholic Church for the Modern world, the most aggressive threats in the Modern World in the 60s were that of
*§1 Communism. This had been analysed and condemned by every pope since its beginning, yet the Second Vatican Council said not a word about it (there is one passing reference in one footnote).

*§2 Modernism, “The synthesis of all heresies”, as Pope S. Pius X called it in his encyclical * Pascendi Dominici Gregis * at the beginning of the 20th Century. He pointed out what a weasel this heresy was, never showing itself openly, but insinuating its errors in by stealth. he thought it so pernicious that he introduced the “Oath against Modernism” to be sworn by all clergy, preachers, religious superiors, and seminary professors, on 1 September, 1910. See
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm
At the Second Vatican Council, many of the tenets of Modernism were adopted as official teaching, without any explanation as to why there was this about-face.

After the Council, the Oath Against Modernism was quietly dropped.

Mgr Lefebvre was the head of one of the largest Religious Communities in the Church, the Holy Spirit Fathers, responsible for the missionary effort to all of French-speaking Africa. during the council, he frequently pointed out what would be the disastrous consequences of certain proposed courses of action, but he was usually outvoted.

The traditional ways of the Church were abandoned. the laity and clergy were told by the hierarchy that this was necessary obedience to the council. the church went into a precipitous decline in vocations, – more religious abandoned their vocations, both in percentage and in gross numbers, than at any time in the church’s history, including during the Protestant Reformation. Teaching of the catechism in Catholic schools was abandoned. Children were no longer taught many things which are nevertheless part of the Faith: Hell, Purgatory, that the Catholic Church is the One True church established by Christ to last until the End of Time. Many customs that had kept the Faith alive for “ordinary” Catholics, such as the Friday abstinence (no meat), the Rosary, Benediction, the Stations of the Cross, kneeling for Holy Communion on the tongue, were dropped in parishes. We were told that all this was “in the Spirit of the Council”.

The liturgy of the Mass, which has remained word-for-word for 400 years, and which in its essentials was traceable in continuity back to S. Gregory the Great (7th Century) and before that, to the Apostles, was changed every two years for over a decade.
 
ESTABLISHMENT OF THE SSPX
Soon after the close of the Council Lefebvre retired. But certain young men came to him saying that they could now no longer find a Seminary that was teaching the Catholic Faith unadulterated by Modernist error and heresy. Lefebvre agreed to give them a one-year course in spirituality. But he immediately found that what they needed first was the Basic Catechism. Things progressed, and he decided to open a Seminary, and to establish a “Priestly Society Without Vows” – The Society of Saint Pius the Tenth (SSPX). Both were done according to the laws of the Catholic Church, and were fully accepted by Rome. The only difficulty was, as one Cardinal told him, “But there are already three seminaries in Switzerland! You won’t get any applicants”! what actually happened, however, was then within five years the other seminaries in Switzerland (along with literally hundreds throughout the world) had closed down, while his own (at Écone) was bulging with seminarians.

In 1969 a New Order of Mass was introduced, and we were all told we had to drop the Traditional Latin Mass and adopt it. A group of Cardinals and theologians sent an anguished letter to Pope Paul VI, pointing out some terrible deficiencies in this new liturgy. See

fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html

This letter was never responded to by the Pope. When the order came to adopt the new liturgy, Mgr Lefebvre refused, stating that the order was invalid and illegal, giving his reaons and evidence.

Not long after that, the main architect of the new Order of Mass, Archbishop Bugnini (who had been given powers by the Pope to over-ride the Congregation for Rites in their bitter opposition to the New Mass), had some falling out with the Pope and was abruptly sent to be Papal Nuncio (=delegate) – to Iran! This is the Church’s equivalent of sending somebody to Siberia. But the New Order of Mass remained unchanged.

The opponents of Écone claimed that Lefebvre and his seminary were being disobedient. Pope Paul was told at least one lie about it: that the seminarians were made to take an oath against Pope Paul VI. Lefebvre was astounded when he finally had an interview with the Pope and was told this. Later, Lefebvre wrote, he wondered if it was based on the fact that hs still made his seminarians take the Oath Against Modernism.

Lefebvre claimed that the charge of disobedience was based on an error: that the integrity of the Faith was currently under one of the greatest attacks in Her history, yet the Church was being asked to lay down her weapons. A series of condemnations and sanctions followed. Lefebvre insisted that each sanction was only in response to his refusing to follow the previous, which was illegal to start with. He tried to lodge a Canonical (Official) Appeal, but this was blocked by the Cardinal Secretary of State.

Things trundled on like this for many years. Every year, the number of SSPX priests increased, and laypeople, bewildered and disenheartened by “The changes”, asked his priests to come and give them the Sacraments and the Catholic teaching which they had been accustomed to receive before “The Changes”. Lefebvre & his priests complied, insisting that “The Changes" could not lawfully be mandated, and that they were manifestly damaging the Church.

The SSPX were ostracised by the Mainstream hierarchy, and congregations were told not to attend their services.
 
THE DECREE OF EXCOMMUNICATION AND ITS AFTERMATH
When Lefebvre was growing old he requested permission to consecrate a successor to his order. The Vatican did not refuse, but kept putting the matter off. Eventually, believing they were simply waiting for him to die, whereas at that time there was no evidence that the hierarchy were able or willing to purge the church of its deadly enemy of Modernism, he announced that, under the provisions of Canon Law, a State of Necessity required him to consecrate a bishop without papal mandate, if necessary.

The Vatican still refused to give him a date or a short list of candidates, so he announced a date when he would proceed, with or without the papal mandate, which “normally” is required, under pain of excommunication. At the very last moment the Vatican offered him an agreement, which he signed. But the next day he retracted his agreement, saying that, on the basis of all that had happened, he could not trust the Vatican to keep their word, and that they would only drag his Fraternity into Modernism like all the others. he then proceeded with the consecration of four bishops. Bp de Castro Meyer, of Brazil, who had been preparing his own priests since the 50s by warning them that a Modernist crisis was looming, joined him in the consecration.

48 hours later it was announced in the Italian newspaper l”Osservatore Romani that the two consecrating bishops, and the four newly-consecrated bishops, were excommunicated under Canon Law. Lefebvre replied that a State of Necessity, brought about by the State of Emergency in the Church, justified his action and rendered the excommunications null and void.

Twelve of his priests left the order and went to the Vatican, and were allowed to start up a new Fraternity, called the Fraternity of S. Peter (FSSP). These were told that they would never have to adopt the New Order of Mass, or say it even once. I was at a meeting just after this when Fr Emerson FSSP was very, very definite about this. Mgr Lefebvre warned them that the Vatican would simply wait a few years, then suddenly order them to say the New Mass and begin the process of joining the Modernist stream in the Church. This is what happened. It was about then that I became convinced of the truth of Mgr Lefebvre’s position.

Matters dragged on in stalemate for 20 years. The SSPX insisted that the fundamental problem was not the Rite of Mass – although it was important – but the infiltration of Modernist Error that was rampaging unhindered through the Church. His opponents said that he must be obedient and abandon the Traditional theology and Liturgy. Lefebvre responded, “It was a master stroke of the devil to introduce apostasy from the Faith under the name of obedience”.

During the Holy Year of 2000, thousands of “Traditional” religious and lay Catholics, organised by the SSPX, processed into S. Peter’s Square, to the feet of the Holy Father, who was visibly impressed, “and all Rome with him”. It was after this that Pope John Paul II began in earnest to try to find a way to normalise the position of the SSPX established by Mgr Lefebvre. Bp Fellay, Mgr Lefebvre’s successor, asked for two pre-conditions for talks. Firstly, that the Vatican tell the truth to the Church about the Traditional Liturgy: that is had never been abolished; and secondly, to lift the decree of excommunication of the SSPX bishops. The SSPX have declared all along that a paper agreement would be worthless as long as those in power in the Vatican persisted in promoting the Modernist Errors: the agreement would fall apart immediately.

Pope Benedict has now publicly stated (to the astonishment of many, who had been told the opposite by people in authority in the Church whom they trustsed, for forty years), that the Traditional Liturgy was never abrogated, and he has lifted the excommunications, although as yet he has not lifted the Suspensions of the SSPX clergy (which the SSPX continue to insist were always invalid).

At present, secret talks are underway with the aim of reconciling the difficuties the SSPX have with the documents of Vatican II. The opponents of the SSPX say that the aim is to persuade the SSPX to accept Vatican II & the authority of the Vatican; the SSPX supporters say that the aim is to induce the Vatican, once and for all, to rule authoritatively on the many points of the Vatican II documents that are ambiguous, and that are allowing error to spread within the Church under cover of the ambiguities (that is, they claim the support of Vatican II for their position).

I might add that each of the steps take by Pope Benedict came after a Rosary Crusde launched by Bp Fellay. He wanted one million rosaries pedged to be said for the intention. Each time, he was given a “Rosary Bouquet” of two and a half million – and the pope did make the initiative requested. The lifting of the excommunications was announced on the very same day that Bp Fellay came to Rome to present the Rosary Bouquet.

Now Bp Fellay is going for broke. He has asked for a Rosary Crusade for twelve million rosaries with the intention that the Pope will carry out the Collegial Consecration of Russia, as requested by Our Lady of Fatima so long ago, and which she promised would bring about the conversion of Russia, and that God would then grant a period of peace to the world. (There is a thread about this on CAF.) The deadline for the 12 million rosaries is March 25th this year! I hope that readers will join, and send their pledges to Bp Fellay.
 
Personally I would not attend an SSPX chapel but having said that I would pay the Priests weight in gold for a good Priest who would actually follow the law of the Church.

Often these fools who criticise the SSPX ignore the many many abuses that take place as normal in every single novus ordo parish in the UK even in place’s where you would think there are none like the London Oratory. Some of you genuinely do not know that half the things that are abuses are in fact abuses.

When will you insist on the Priest always purifying his hands according to the rite of the Church?

When will you insist that all those who approach the altar for Communion make that act of adoration that is required by the Church?

When will you insist that the sacrarium in your Churches sacristy starts being used again and stop putting atar linen into the washing machine without the mandated purifications?

When will you insist that all those who continue to take Communion in the hand actually take some time to make sure no fragments are lost?

When will you insist that those who cannot do this properly be denied reception in the hand?

When will you insist that the Priest gives catholic advice in the confessional? Some of the things I have heard therein have been astounding?

When will you insist that Priests preach orthodox doctrine from the pulpit instead of things that are in direct contradiction to dogmas of the Faith.

When will you insist that people go to confession regularly? I know many who go to Holy Communion but have been years and years without confession.

All these things are incredibly common everywhere. There is quite a lot more wrong in the Church right now so being pushed to the SSPX is understandable.

Paul
 
And you never acknowledged that Benedict and Francis never ordained anyone without permission, which is what got some people excommunicated. It was not theological disagreement and we all know this.
Okay, I acknowledge that Benedict and Francis never ordained anyone without permission. I never said they did. Now, answer my question…

Would Saints Benedict and Francis obey their superior if their superior told them to accept something that was contrary to what the Church has always believed and taught?
 
So why is theology always the focus? That is not the issue that lead to the current condition, whatever you want to call it.
Actually, Church doctrine was the reason that Archbishop Lefebvre saw a state of necessity in the Church, which then led him to consecrated four bishops without papal permission. So, yes, theology IS the issue that lead to the current condition.
 
Personally I would not attend an SSPX chapel but having said that I would pay the Priests weight in gold for a good Priest who would actually follow the law of the Church.

Often these fools who criticise the SSPX ignore the many many abuses that take place as normal in every single novus ordo parish in the UK even in place’s where you would think there are none like the London Oratory. Some of you genuinely do not know that half the things that are abuses are in fact abuses.

When will you insist on the Priest always purifying his hands according to the rite of the Church?

When will you insist that all those who approach the altar for Communion make that act of adoration that is required by the Church?

When will you insist that the sacrarium in your Churches sacristy starts being used again and stop putting atar linen into the washing machine without the mandated purifications?

When will you insist that all those who continue to take Communion in the hand actually take some time to make sure no fragments are lost?

When will you insist that those who cannot do this properly be denied reception in the hand?

When will you insist that the Priest gives catholic advice in the confessional? Some of the things I have heard therein have been astounding?

When will you insist that Priests preach orthodox doctrine from the pulpit instead of things that are in direct contradiction to dogmas of the Faith.

When will you insist that people go to confession regularly? I know many who go to Holy Communion but have been years and years without confession.

All these things are incredibly common everywhere. There is quite a lot more wrong in the Church right now so being pushed to the SSPX is understandable.

Paul
I insist on these things, but I am in no position to enforce them. Hence, I follow the true Church despite the failings of some of Her leaders.

However, if those in authority of the true Church do not enforce them, why would you suggest I go to another Church that broke away from the chair of Peter in order to enforce them? Don’t you see that refusal to be obedient to the Vatican is just as wrong as failing to insist on regular confession? This is the main point that needs to be addressed in this thread…
 
SSPX stands for “Society of St. Pius X (the tenth)” and it has an irregular standing in the Church at present. You would find your local chapel by comparing those churches that call themselves “Catholic” in your telephone directory, and comparing it to the list provided by your Bishop. Those not on the list provided by your Bishop are likely to be SSPX chapels.
Thank you. I intend to follow the bishop. Otherwise this is way over my head. Confusion seems to be a tool of the devil. I did read a small booklet on Freemasonry which seemed to say that alot of stufff since Vatican 2 is not “really” correct catholicism,but I don’t have the time to look into all that right now. I’m kind of glad of it. It seems way to complicated for my simple mind to comprehend. Something about it being a pastoral,not doctinal council with alot of questionable topics. Maybe some other time.
 
Don’t you see that refusal to be obedient to the Vatican is just as wrong as failing to insist on regular confession? This is the main point that needs to be addressed in this thread…
But don’t you see that from the viewpoint of Archbishop Lefebvre (and the SSPX), the Church is in a state of crisis, and he consecrated these four bishops out of a preceived state of necessity in order to preserve the true Faith. He was, in his belief, acting in true obedience to the Faith.

As a sidenote, Canon Law states that a person who violates a law out of necessity is not subject to a penalty (1983 Code of Canon Law, canon 1323, §4). Now, whether or not one believes that there truly was a state of necessity, the fact remains that to Archbishop Lefebvre there was, and he did what he preceived was the only route to take.
 
But don’t you see that from the viewpoint of Archbishop Lefebvre (and the SSPX), the Church is in a state of crisis, and he consecrated these four bishops out of a preceived state of necessity in order to preserve the true Faith. He was, in his belief, acting in true obedience to the Faith.
Your phrasing betrays the precise problem (my emphasis added):

“From the viewpoint of Archbishop Lefebvre (and the SSPX)…”
“a preceived state of necessity…”
“He was, in his belief, acting…”

So you are trying to justify the disobedience of the SSPX to the lawful authority of the pope based on viewpoints, perceptions, and beliefs of those who are supposed to be subject to him; therein lies the problem.
 
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