Putting Michael Jackson In Context

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All I can ever say that I “knew” about Michael Jackson was how much fun I had as a kid and still have listening to his music. I am a few years younger than he is, and the idea of a kid my age having his own cartoon show just knocked me out. I’ve never seen anyone dance the way he did, or perform the way he did. At a time in history when black and white were pretty separate in my community, Michael crossed boundries and we all danced when his music came on the radio. The message of some of his songs was very uplifting, I still love the song “Man in the Mirror” because it reminds me that if I want the world around me to change it starts with ME.

As for the rest-I “know” nothing. It’s between Michael and God now, and that’s where I’m going to leave it.
You like “Man in the Mirror”, too? I love the song, too. It seems that a lot of people on this forum like it as well.

That gives me an idea: I might make a poll of Michael Jackson songs and see which ones are liked best…if I can.
 
the media has excessive coverage of Michael Jackson because of his influence on the music world for almost his entire life. we watched a legend grow up. yes, he was idolized by many. not as a God i don’t think. there are so many unanswered questions about his personal life. it will take years to figure it out and some questions may never be answered.
he was a wonderful entertainer and really connected through his music. he will be missed by his fans. i was a fan up until the abuse allegations started. he is another american tragedy.
 
I didn’t watch the memorial service, but I did check out the video on Yahoo! where his daughter eulogized him and it struck me that, whatever our perceptions, impressions or opinions are about this man, he had people who loved him–maybe not as many as he thought, maybe not the ones who should have loved him, but he was loved and will be missed. Behind the glove and masks and security gates was a human being who merely wanted to be loved. He was loved by total strangers through his music (call it obsession if you want to) but when you’re starving for it, you’ll take it however you can.

I was a teenager in the '80s and I wasn’t a big pop fan (I was country when country wasn’t cool) but Michael Jackson defined the era I grew up in. I think what shocked me more than his sudden death was the realization that this icon of my teenage years was FIFTY YEARS OLD. Hello, mortality! Yes, we all grew up in the last 20-30 years and what is sad is that, perhaps, Michael never did. And yet, he still died. If nothing else, it should give us pause that despite the botox, the face lifts, the hair coloring and whatever else it is people pour money into to stay young, we’re still going to die.

Perhaps that’s why I was so moved by the final days of Farrah Fawcett–if I had expected anyone to try to hang on to their younger years, it was her (she personified beauty back in the '70s–ask any teenage boy from that era who had that poster on his wall!) and yet she was willing to show the world, “Look, this is what happens to youth and beauty and fame–in the end, it won’t save you or comfort you.” She “got right” with God, carried her rosary and prayed to the end. I only pray that in some way, Michael got a chance to “get right” with God as well.

It’s eerily reminiscent of when Princess Diana died, with Mother Teresa dying only a few days later. One was eclipsed by the other, and yet I think the one in the shadow would have preferred it that way. So let us pray for all those who, expectedly and unexpectedly, meet their deaths everyday and especially for their families.
 
Missing a shot implies that there was an earnest attempt to shoot the deer. If he really didn’t try to shoot the deer and “missed” on purpose, he didn’t really “miss” because his target wasn’t actually the deer. However, you wouldn’t know if he really tried to shoot the deer or not unless he told you. It’s a similar thing with Jackson’s case…except there’s an extra catch. First, we don’t know if Jackson intended or desired to have sexual contact with children (I strongly doubt it). That is something you continue to claim to know (with the use of words like “lure”), but you really don’t. Second, and most importantly, you have no proof that Jackson touched a child or did anything with a child that was sexual in nature. On the other hand you do have proof that the person made a shot and therefore there is at least some plausible claim that he is a hunter. 😛

Jesus said that we need to stop judging by appearances and judge rightly. Right judgment is the careful and prudent judgment about things. A judgment by appearance is simply a quick and ignorant (for lack of a better term) judgment based on how we see things. You are not alone in such things. I struggle too in making right judgments about people and things. But just so you know, God in heaven is watching. To make damaging claims such as the one you make about someone else, regardless if he be a celebrity, especially about something you are not very sure about, is nothing less than libelous. Of course, it doesn’t seem like a big deal…Michael is (or was) a celebrity after all. But if you really think about it, what you are doing is not all that different from defaming or libeling a co-worker or a peer. I’ve really thought about it…those tabloids…the very publishing of them is a sin, I think, especially if those things are false. I have a lot of work to do myself on this issue, but I thought I should bring it to your attention before you proceed with claims you are unsure about.
Lying in bed with children is the same thing as firing a shot at a deer.

What do you think about people living together prior to marriage?
 
Lying in bed with children is the same thing as firing a shot at a deer.

What do you think about people living together prior to marriage?
I never said that him lying in bed with children was right. In fact I believe he should not have laid in bed with them. However, that’s from the point of view that there is an adult and a child in bed with each other. What if Jackson did not see himself as an adult, but rather as a child sleeping with another child. Well, of course, if he really were a child we’d see nothing wrong with it. There is much evidence that he did see himself as a child and as I said before, it seems that he never grew up mentally. If he really was mentally a child, then you can’t judge his situation the same as you would someone who was truly an adult. It’s kind of like telling someone with depression to “be happy.” You assume that his intentions were perverted; I say that we really don’t know, but that there is evidence as to why he was with children the way he was. You cannot say certainly that he had sexual desire for children and you cannot say certainly that he actually had sexual activity with children.

People living with one another before marriage are committing a sin, but that’s hardly on topic with the disagreement. There is not grounds to assume that he had sexual attraction to children. A pedophile is clearly someone who has a sexual attraction to children and has acted on it in some fashion.* If Jackson did not have sexual attraction to children and he did not act them in any fashion, the on what grounds do you call him a pedophile or a pervert?* I do agree that he put himself in a terrible position, but that’s assuming he knew better and I honestly don’t think he did.
 
There is much evidence that he did see himself as a child and as I said before, it seems that he never grew up mentally. If he really was mentally a child, then you can’t judge his situation the same as you would someone who was truly an adult. .
What about his singing ‘Billy Jean’ and making those indecent dance moves?😃

albertziggy:rolleyes:
 
What about his singing ‘Billy Jean’ and making those indecent dance moves?😃

albertziggy:rolleyes:
I haven’t seen anyone claiming that he never made mistakes.

I have made many. Haven’t you?

The fact remains that Michael Jackson was a child of God, and deserves our prayers. May he someday be with God, our Creator.
 
I haven’t seen anyone claiming that he never made mistakes.

I have made many. Haven’t you?

The fact remains that Michael Jackson was a child of God, and deserves our prayers. May he someday be with God, our Creator.
Well I am not about to claim perfection. 😛 I can assure you of that. I agree with you that everyone needs prayers. What I wanted to point out is that we put things in their proper context. I leave it at that.

Thank you.

albertziggy:rolleyes:
 
Baseball players grab their crotch constantly (I assume it’s to adjust their cup?). Do you have the same objections?

To the person who claims that Michael Jackson is a pedophile–that is slander. You are not stating it as your personal opinion, you are stating it as fact, and unless you were there, you don’t know the facts and you are out of line. You keep using the deer analogy; well, in my opinion, a person who would spread slander about someone is not trustworthy in any other area of their life. Fair enough?

If I were you, I would be careful about saying this in certain settings–online there’s not a whole lot that can happen to you. But in real life, you could be in trouble in work, school, or social setting. I’m not a fanatical Michael Jackson fan, but even I will not stand by and allow someone to be accused of a gross perversion that is not proven in a court of law. Use a little discretion, please. Just because you’re on an anonymous online board doesn’t give you the right to malign someone that you don’t even know.
 
I never said that him lying in bed with children was right. In fact I believe he should not have laid in bed with them. However, that’s from the point of view that there is an adult and a child in bed with each other. What if Jackson did not see himself as an adult, but rather as a child sleeping with another child. Well, of course, if he really were a child we’d see nothing wrong with it. There is much evidence that he did see himself as a child and as I said before, it seems that he never grew up mentally. If he really was mentally a child, then you can’t judge his situation the same as you would someone who was truly an adult. It’s kind of like telling someone with depression to “be happy.” You assume that his intentions were perverted; I say that we really don’t know, but that there is evidence as to why he was with children the way he was. You cannot say certainly that he had sexual desire for children and you cannot say certainly that he actually had sexual activity with children.

People living with one another before marriage are committing a sin, but that’s hardly on topic with the disagreement. There is not grounds to assume that he had sexual attraction to children. A pedophile is clearly someone who has a sexual attraction to children and has acted on it in some fashion.* If Jackson did not have sexual attraction to children and he did not act them in any fashion, the on what grounds do you call him a pedophile or a pervert?* I do agree that he put himself in a terrible position, but that’s assuming he knew better and I honestly don’t think he did.
How can you defend the position that a 40 year old man didn’t know it was wrong to lie in bed with children? A statement like that needs EXTRAORDINARY proof.

How can you say that people who live together before marriage are committing a sin? That’s a bit presumptuous, don’t you think? How dare the priest say they should move out for 6 months before getting married!
 
How can you defend the position that a 40 year old man didn’t know it was wrong to lie in bed with children? A statement like that needs EXTRAORDINARY proof.

How can you say that people who live together before marriage are committing a sin? That’s a bit presumptuous, don’t you think? How dare the priest say they should move out for 6 months before getting married!
If that 40 year old man had the emotional maturity of a 10 year old-then maybe he didn’t. We don’t know what his intent was, and the last I checked you have to have intent to have committed a crime.

Would I have let a child stay overnight at Jackson’s house? NO WAY. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to say he definately committed a crime.
 
Some one compared this media coverage to when Elvis died. I was seven years old then. I don’t think cable tv was in existence (or maybe with a very limited number of users) If there was a lot of coverage, it was only on the big three, ABC, CBS, NBC. Maybe some local stations.

The difference is now we have the internet. And cable news and cable entertainment stations.

Funny, when Elvis died, I was just getting to be the age when you realize what death is. I remember feeling so sad for his daughter, and worrying about my own parents. I think that summer Freddie Prinze killed himself also (Remember Chico and the Man?)

Someone mentioned his being eccentric and oddly attached to children on the fact that he didn’t have a childhood. I guess if you become extraordinarily wealthy, you can do that. Other people that I know who also didn’t have a nice idyllic childhood, had to get over it,. My grandfather lost his dad at the age of 18 months in post WWI Italy. He had to leave school after the third grade to go to work. He worked on farms and on construction sites.🤷 I knew grandpa when he was older, and although he wasn’t warm and fuzzy, he didn’t act like a big 6 year old. 🤷
 
How can you defend the position that a 40 year old man didn’t know it was wrong to lie in bed with children? A statement like that needs EXTRAORDINARY proof.
That’s ridiculous. For an adult to lie in bed with a child is not an absolute wrong. Having sex with a child is. Apparently, you believe that humans are completely and totally unable to sleep in the same bed without having sex. That says more about you than Michael Jackson.

Yes, it seems strange to us - none of us do it and none of us were brought up that way - it’s our culture. Our parents try to get us to sleep in our own bed, alone as soon as they can. For many many cultures in the world that is not so. I spent a couple years in Africa, and people shared beds/cots/mats all the time and frequently a child did so with an adult not his/her father. Nothing sexual occurred.

Finally, last time I checked people are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in our country and have NO BURDEN OF PROOF to remain innocent. You are the accuser: provide EXTRAORDINARY proof (e.g. BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT) that he was a pedophile.
 
How can you defend the position that a 40 year old man didn’t know it was wrong to lie in bed with children? A statement like that needs EXTRAORDINARY proof.

How can you say that people who live together before marriage are committing a sin? That’s a bit presumptuous, don’t you think? How dare the priest say they should move out for 6 months before getting married!
Since I never stated it as a fact, but rather as a possibility, it does not need proof. However, you’re assertions that he is a pedophile require a lot of proof as well, of which you have none.

Regarding two people living together before marriage, it is right to assume the two people are sexually attracted to each other, since they are getting married after all. If that’s the case, living in the same home together before marriage is an near occasion of sin which is a sin in and of itself. The Catholic Church recognizes the aforementioned situation as the sin of cohabitation. It is not presumptuous at all. It is presumptuous to assume that someone has lured children into his home to have sex with them, especially when there is evidence that he may not have done so for that particular reason. To state the question that someone else used above: Would I bring my children into Michael Jackson’s home? Probably not. But realize that when you call Michael Jackson a pedophile, you are saying that thousands of parents who did bring their children into Jackson’s home after the 1993 situation are horrible parents who knowingly put their children in danger.

Did he have sexual attraction to children? And did he act on that sexual attraction in any fashion? If you can answer a definitive yes to both of these questions (I know you can’t), then you can say that Michael Jackson is a pedophile. But if you cannot, don’t state your opinion as if it were fact and that you are 100% certain of its truth.

Again. Do I think it was wrong that Michael Jackson laid in bed with children? Maybe. Is he therefore a pedophile because he did? Not necessarily. I do not know and neither do you. To assume that he was without sufficient evidence is (as Cat said) slander. It is no less so because he is a celebrity.

Note: No one on this thread has said definitively that Michael Jackson was not a pedophile. Some of us have said that it is more likely that he wasn’t. As for myself, I will leave that judgment to God who knows better.
 
Some one compared this media coverage to when Elvis died. I was seven years old then. I don’t think cable tv was in existence (or maybe with a very limited number of users) If there was a lot of coverage, it was only on the big three, ABC, CBS, NBC. Maybe some local stations.

The difference is now we have the internet. And cable news and cable entertainment stations.

Funny, when Elvis died, I was just getting to be the age when you realize what death is. I remember feeling so sad for his daughter, and worrying about my own parents. I think that summer Freddie Prinze killed himself also (Remember Chico and the Man?)

Someone mentioned his being eccentric and oddly attached to children on the fact that he didn’t have a childhood. I guess if you become extraordinarily wealthy, you can do that. Other people that I know who also didn’t have a nice idyllic childhood, had to get over it,. My grandfather lost his dad at the age of 18 months in post WWI Italy. He had to leave school after the third grade to go to work. He worked on farms and on construction sites.🤷 I knew grandpa when he was older, and although he wasn’t warm and fuzzy, he didn’t act like a big 6 year old. 🤷
I understand what you are trying to say here, but not everyone is the same. Some people cannot get over things, other people can. That’s like saying because one person was able to recover from childhood abuse from his father, that everyone should as well without any effect. Of course we know that’s not true at all. Also there is a great big difference between post WWI era and the 1960s. I am almost sure that if your typical third grader of today went through what he what he went through, today of course, I am not so sure you could say that they’d deal with it the same way.
 
it is hard to know what is a rumor and what is truth, but i had heard when he was in the middle east that he was considering converting to Islam. conversion is pretty easy. don’t you just have to say a prayer or make a confession of faith? the other night during an interview, his brother jermaine referred to Allah more than once. i know the mother is a jehovah witness. however, the memorial service yesterday had a somewhat christian tone.
i wondered if michael jackson was even in the casket that was there. did he still consider himself a muslim or did he ever convert? like i said in an earlier post. there are so many unanswered questions. what a mixed up family!
 
it is hard to know what is a rumor and what is truth, but i had heard when he was in the middle east that he was considering converting to Islam. conversion is pretty easy. don’t you just have to say a prayer or make a confession of faith? the other night during an interview, his brother jermaine referred to Allah more than once. i know the mother is a jehovah witness. however, the memorial service yesterday had a somewhat christian tone.
i wondered if michael jackson was even in the casket that was there. did he still consider himself a muslim or did he ever convert? like i said in an earlier post. there are so many unanswered questions. what a mixed up family!
They said that his death was much like his life: crazy like a circus.
I also read somewhere that someone close to him said that he did not convert to Islam. I don’t where I read it though.
 
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