Q for Christians: Why were the Magi looking for Jesus?

[swariffin]

That doesn’t mean he was. I could go out in the middle of the town and say the same thing, it doesn’t make it so.

Frankly, that passage confirmed to me what I always suspected: the NT was written partly by nonJews who were unfamiliar with genuine Jewish burial customs…and it was written after Jesus had died as well. For all anyone knows, Jesus never even said that.

Dear Hashem,

Luke was not a Jew. You are correct. But Matthew and John were Jews, and well versed to the Thorah and the book of Prophets. John mentioned that Nicodemus (one of the member of the Sanhedrin) brought the Myrh.

 

[HashemEchad]

In either case whether or not the Jews did it before, they followed Jesus’ instructions. They did however, obey the Sabbath.

There are other instances where Jesus broke with Jewish tradition. This is nothing new and your argument that the writers were unfamiliar with Jewish customs does not stand. They NT makes it a point to point these out.

You say they broke Jewish traditions (and in Judaism, custom takes on the force of law.)

Yet Christians also say Jesus kept the Law perfectly.

(My head hurts!)

 

[HashemEchad]

Jesus would then be a liar. His ruse would not stand the test of time. Martyrs don’t die for a ruse. What makes it stand the test? The things He did. The miracles. The Resurrection. The witness of over 500 people. All of this validates His claim. It all ties.

Judaism has always taught the Resurrection of the dead, but not one person, one time. Judaism has always taught that the Resurrection of the dead will happen at the End of Days, and ALL people will be raised, not just one.

BTW who actually witnessed Jesus being raised from the dead? They claim to have seen him afterward, but no one claims to have actually seen him raised (btw it was a Catholic nun who pointed that fact out to me!)

Jesus did miracles? So did the magicians at Pharoah’s court. Miracles in and of themselves are meaningless.

You say no one dies for a lie? Some people do. There have been men on death row who went to their deaths professing innocence, but DNA tests later proved they were the murderers after all.

So you see, some people DO die for a lie.

 

[HashemEchad]

I’m sorry if that’s all you see.

I read the Old Testament in the context Jesus Christ; It makes so much more sense that way.

This is the typical Christian way: they choose to believe in Jesus, and then LOOK BACK to try to “see” him in our Jewish Scriptures. With all the distortions and mistranslations in the Christian versions of the Jewish Bible, its no wonder you “see” him there.

The true Messiah is supposed to bring peace…Isa. 11:6-9 speaks of how the world will be when the true Messiah arrives.

Have wars stopped since Jesus arrived? Has killing stopped?

I know, I know…that gets swept under the rug of a ‘second coming’.

 

[Eden]

You say no one dies for a lie? Some people do. There have been men on death row who went to their deaths professing innocence, but DNA tests later proved they were the murderers after all.

So you see, some people DO die for a lie.

This is a horrible example. People on death row die because they’ve committed a crime and their punishment is death. They lie about not committing a crime to save their lives. They don’t willingly give their lives, as Christian martyrs have done, because they are willing to die for their beliefs. Totally different concept here. Wow, I’m shocked that you parallel the two. They are so obviously unrelated.

 

[Spirithound]

You say no one dies for a lie? Some people do. There have been men on death row who went to their deaths professing innocence, but DNA tests later proved they were the murderers after all.

So you see, some people DO die for a lie.

Noooo…the lie of the prisoner in your example plays no part whatsoever in his death…next scenario please?

 

[HashemEchad]

This is a horrible example. People on death row die because they’ve committed a crime and their punishment is death. They lie about not committing a crime to save their lives. They don’t willingly give their lives, as Christian martyrs have done, because they are willing to die for their beliefs. Totally different concept here. Wow, I’m shocked that you parallel the two. They are so obviously unrelated.

OK…how about this?

There have been people in other religions who also died for their beliefs…there have been Buddhist martyrs, Jewish martyrs, Jehovah Witness martyrs, Mormon martyrs…I’m sure you regard those religions as false, yet members in them have given their lives for their beliefs.

As for the death row analogy, I was trying to show that people HAVE gone to their deaths while still claiming to be innocent. If they saw they were not going to be able to save their lives by confessing, why woiuld they keep claiming innocence? What good would it do them?

 

[swariffin]

BTW who actually witnessed Jesus being raised from the dead? They claim to have seen him afterward, but no one claims to have actually seen him raised (btw it was a Catholic nun who pointed that fact out to me!)

Jesus did miracles? So did the magicians at Pharoah’s court. Miracles in and of themselves are meaningless.

Dear Hashem,

When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after being 4 days in the grave, IN FRONT OF MANY PEOPLE, instead of believing in Jesus, the leader chose to kill Lazarus again. Why should Jesus wasted his time to argue about His resurrection? Instead of believing, they would rather blame it as the failure of the Romans to kill Jesus, and tried another method of killing Jesus. No wonder Jesus called them as stubborn.

You claim that the magicials of Pharaoh did miracle? Miracle and magic are 2 different species. Now, please anwer my question. Did Moses played magic too in front of Pharaoh? Why did Moses “magic” prevailed?

 

[Spirithound]

OK…how about this?

There have been people in other religions who also died for their beliefs…there have been Buddhist martyrs, Jewish martyrs, Jehovah Witness martyrs, Mormon martyrs…I’m sure you regard those religions as false, yet members in them have given their lives for their beliefs.

As for the death row analogy, I was trying to show that people HAVE gone to their deaths while still claiming to be innocent. If they saw they were not going to be able to save their lives by confessing, why woiuld they keep claiming innocence? What good would it do them?

The only martyrs we’re talking about are the Apostles. They are the only ones in history to have the distinction of actually KNOWING whether they are right or wrong about the fundamental basis of their religion. Anyone else, including Christian martyrs who did not see Jesus personally, is not dying for a lie/truth, but for a belief.

 

[Spirithound]

You claim that the magicials of Pharaoh did miracle? Miracle and magic are 2 different species. Now, please anwer my question. Did Moses played magic too in front of Pharaoh? Why did Moses “magic” prevailed?

Also, the magicians of Pharaoh were only able to replicate the first two plagues. They were trumped at the gnats.

 

[swariffin]

This is a horrible example. People on death row die because they’ve committed a crime and their punishment is death. They lie about not committing a crime to save their lives. They don’t willingly give their lives, as Christian martyrs have done, because they are willing to die for their beliefs. Totally different concept here. Wow, I’m shocked that you parallel the two. They are so obviously unrelated.

Dear Eden,

The caused of the dead does not matter and is not important to Hashem. The only thing that Hashem see is both the criminals and the martyrs were dead.

 

[Pier]

Judaism has always taught the Resurrection of the dead, but not one person, one time. Judaism has always taught that the Resurrection of the dead will happen at the End of Days, and ALL people will be raised, not just one.

BTW who actually witnessed Jesus being raised from the dead? They claim to have seen him afterward, but no one claims to have actually seen him raised (btw it was a Catholic nun who pointed that fact out to me!)

Jesus did miracles? So did the magicians at Pharoah’s court. Miracles in and of themselves are meaningless.

You say no one dies for a lie? Some people do. There have been men on death row who went to their deaths professing innocence, but DNA tests later proved they were the murderers after all.

So you see, some people DO die for a lie.

Well, just because some people call Him a magician rather than the Messiah doesn’t make it so. Christ’s murder and return from the dead was witnessed by many…

Jesus didn’t die for a lie - plus, Body and Soul, he is indeed alive. :yup:

 

[Eden]

Judaism has always taught the Resurrection of the dead, but not one person, one time. Judaism has always taught that the Resurrection of the dead will happen at the End of Days, and ALL people will be raised, not just one.

Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.

Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.

BTW who actually witnessed Jesus being raised from the dead? They claim to have seen him afterward, but no one claims to have actually seen him raised (btw it was a Catholic nun who pointed that fact out to me!)

Yet, she is still a nun. So, if you expected this to be “troubling”, you were wrong. If someone wanted to make up a story, they could just as easily say, “Yeah, I saw Him raise from the dead”. So, what’s the trouble with this? The facts happened to occur in another way. His body was buried in a tomb with a stone rolled in to close it. There wouldn’t have been a crowd there inside the tomb at the time, let alone one witness.

Jesus did miracles? So did the magicians at Pharoah’s court. Miracles in and of themselves are meaningless.

Wow, that’s some “magician”… even appearing after death! That has to be the ultimate “magic trick”.

I can tell you haven’t looked at the link with side-by-side comparisons of the Old Testament prophecies with the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ, so here it is again:

scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

There is far too much here to ignore as “reading into” passages.

 

[Eden]

Dear Eden,

The caused of the dead does not matter and is not important to Hashem. The only thing that Hashem see is both the criminals and the martyrs were dead.

But Hashem says that people on death row die for a lie, but they don’t. They die for having committed a crime. The parallel is entirely flawed.

 

[Eden]

As for the death row analogy, I was trying to show that people HAVE gone to their deaths while still claiming to be innocent. If they saw they were not going to be able to save their lives by confessing, why woiuld they keep claiming innocence? What good would it do them?

I’ve never heard of someone getting off death row for confessing that they were really guilty of the crime they were convicted of and sent to death row for, “so please release me, judge”. But claiming innocence just might help with legal maneuvering. Appeals and stays of execution can happen right up to the 11th hour.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

This is the typical Christian way: they choose to believe in Jesus, and then LOOK BACK to try to “see” him in our Jewish Scriptures…

Yes! That’s exactly right!!! :clapping:

We do see his virgin birth in the OT (Isaiah 7:14),
and that He was born under a bright star (Numbers 24:17),
in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2),
as a king who’ll be known as the Son of God (Psalms 2:7),
who will be betrayed by a close friend for 30 silver coins (Psalms 41:9 and Zechariah 11:9,12),
who’ll be rejected by His own people (Isaiah 53:3),
numbered amongst the criminals (Isaiah 53:12),
whose clothes were gambled for and divided up amongst evil men (Psalms 22:18).
All the while, feeling forsaken by His Father (Psalms 22:1).
And we mourn for Him like an only child (Zechariah 12:10).
He bore the punishment of many (Isaiah 53:11),
buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9),
but saved from the power of death (Psalms 49:15).

All this - and more - was fulfilled by Jesus.

I see Jesus all over the Old Testament - but none so vivid as the sacrificial Lamb of God - crucified at Passover - to free us from the slavery of sin.

O come, O come, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel.
That mourns in lonely exile here,
Until the Son of God appears.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel -
Shall come to thee, O Israel.

 

[Eden]

There have been people in other religions who also died for their beliefs…there have been Buddhist martyrs, Jewish martyrs, Jehovah Witness martyrs, Mormon martyrs…I’m sure you regard those religions as false, yet members in them have given their lives for their beliefs.

I’m not too familiar with Buddhist martyrs, but the ones I know of do not actually fit the category of “martyr”. They committed “religious suicide”. Take for instance, the Buddhists “martyrs” in Vietnam in the '60s:

jstor.org/pss/1061959

The same is true of Muslim suicide bombers.

***Real martyrs do not kill themselves.

***“Suicide protesters dousing themselves with petrol, e.g., Buddhist monks in Vietnam in the 1960’s; prisoners who hunger strike unto death, e.g., Bobby Sands in Maze Prison in Northern Ireland in 1981, and Terence McSweeney, the mayor of Cork, in 1920, whose bishop (rightly) said he could * not * receive Holy Communion or be anointed; Palestinian suicide bombers — all these are not martyrs.”

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=8164

I want to be certain that we are all using the same definition of martyr.**********

 

[swariffin]

But Hashem says that people on death row die for a lie, but they don’t. They die for having committed a crime. The parallel is entirely flawed.

I know what you mean, Eden. I was joking to you about Hashem. To Hasheem, the parallelism between the martyr and the criminal means nothing, because they both dead at the end of the story.

 

[swariffin]

OK…how about this?

There have been people in other religions who also died for their beliefs…there have been Buddhist martyrs, Jewish martyrs, Jehovah Witness martyrs, Mormon martyrs…I’m sure you regard those religions as false, yet members in them have given their lives for their beliefs.

As for the death row analogy, I was trying to show that people HAVE gone to their deaths while still claiming to be innocent. If they saw they were not going to be able to save their lives by confessing, why woiuld they keep claiming innocence? What good would it do them?

Dear Hasheem,

Perhaps my knowledge is limited. Could you please name at least one Buddhist martyr, Jehovah Witnesses martyr, Mormon martyr for us. For Jewish martyr, I can give you one (beside Jesus since you don’t admit Him), and that is John the Baptist. Could you give me another name of Jewish martyr? Wow, how can I link this martyrdom back to the “Maginess” of Jesus.

 

[Eden]

I know what you mean, Eden. I was joking to you about Hashem. To Hasheem, the parallelism between the martyr and the criminal means nothing, because they both dead at the end of the story.

O.K., got it.