Q: Papal Infallibility

  • Thread starter Thread starter lookaround
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

lookaround

Guest
Unlike the ordination of a Deacon, Priest, or Bishop the crowning of a Pope is not considered a sacrament. If the pope wasn’t infallible before he became pope what makes him suddenly become infallible after he becomes pope?
What changes?
 
Unlike the ordination of a Deacon, Priest, or Bishop the crowning of a Pope is not considered a sacrament. If the pope wasn’t infallible before he became pope what makes him suddenly become infallible after he becomes pope?
What changes?
His office as the Successor of Peter.
 
Unlike the ordination of a Deacon, Priest, or Bishop the crowning of a Pope is not considered a sacrament. If the pope wasn’t infallible before he became pope what makes him suddenly become infallible after he becomes pope?
What changes?
I think you need to research the way the Pope is “infallible”. If you mean that everything he says is dogma and needs to be believed, you are mistaken. The Pope’s infallibility depends on a number of things and can only be declared under certain circumstances. He’s not infallible in the way Jesus was infallible.

That said, the Pope’s position is an “office”. He’s still a Bishop. And he, under certain circumstances, can infallibly proclaim a Truth through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is what “looses and binds”. He can’t just say, “I’m going to make Mary the fourth part of the Trinity” because the Holy Spirit needs to be involved and that particular statement is not Truth, therefore the Pope will never make that statement. He can, with the help of others, research a Truth and develop it more fully through what has already been revealed to us. But he cannot make something up out of the blue and proclaim it infallibly. And also, the Holy Spirit can prevent him from proclaiming an error, as in at least one pope in the past who was going to make an errant “infallible” statement, and died suddenly the day before he was to make the statement. (Sorry, I can’t remember the Pope, I heard it from I think Jimmy Akin on a Catholic Answers Live show. If anyone knows who, let me know.)

Of course, if that’s not what you’re talking about, then…

Nevermind! 😊

Snert
 
You’ve heard before of Mayors of a city giving a celebrity the keys to the city? That is a power that goes with the office, like State Governors or the US President have with being able to pardon or commute prison sentences. The power belongs to the office, not to the person, meaning whoever is filling that office at that time gets those powers.

In this case, when one is elected Pope, the power, by virtue of the office, is conferred to them. The act of a successful vote by the College of Cardinals is what confers that power.
 
The ability to exercise certain sacraments, such as the Sacrament of Reconciliation, is dependent on two powers - the power of orders, and the power of jurisdiction. All bishops have the fullness of the sacrament of orders, whereas the bishop of Rome also has the power of universal jurisdiction.
 
Unlike the ordination of a Deacon, Priest, or Bishop the crowning of a Pope is not considered a sacrament. If the pope wasn’t infallible before he became pope what makes him suddenly become infallible after he becomes pope?
What changes?
Good question. The Pope is always a Bishop, and all Bishops, by virtue of receiving the Sacrament of Ordination to the highest degree, the episcopal degree, are able to participate in the Magisterium. His promotion to the position of leader of the Bishops allows him to exercise the Magisterium in a special way, under papal infallibility. But he began to be able to exercise the Magisterium, and even to participate in exercising the infallible Magisterium, as a Bishop at his ordination.

So your expectation that papal infallibility would be tied to a Sacrament is basically correct.
 
So your expectation that papal infallibility would be tied to a Sacrament is basically correct.
From what I understand of Catholic theology it had to be tied to a sacrament.
I found it unusual (from my understand of Catholic theology) that it is not a sacrament.

I want to thank everyone that tried to answer my question
but as a non-Catholic (former Catholic) it really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me (if it did I guess I would be Catholic)

thank you
 
This is similar to what the user before posted
I don’t understand, under Catholic theology what change happens (since its not a sacrament)
Neither is coming to faith a Sacrament, but it calls down Heavenly graces nevertheless. It is how we are saved. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, Who arrived at Pentecost, to His Apostles. Peter was established by Christ as chief among the Apostles, and so he, and his successors as the Bishop of Rome, are protected from error by the leading of the Holy Spirit. You do realize the limitations of infallibility, right?
 
under Catholic theology
only when the pope is speaking infallibly is he infallible (I don’t mean to make it sound so funny 😛 )
From the First Vatican Council:
Therefore,
faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
to the glory of God our saviour,
for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
for the salvation of the christian people,
with the approval of the sacred council,
we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when,
1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
he possesses,
by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.

Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
The Pope is only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra. He must speak definitively in proclaiming a doctrine of faith or morals and have the clear manifest intention of binding such a teaching on the entire Church universally. If these conditions are not met, then it is not infallible. But, just because he might preach non-infallibly while exercising his office does not mean we are free to discard everything or anything he says in a non-Ex Cathedra fashion while expressed in his office. We must still abide by it religiously until it be corrected by the Church. Also, he might still speak infallible truths while not doing so Ex Cathedra. When he speaks in an informal setting as a mere private individual (e.g. as you and I are speaking right now) and not in virtue of his office, then we are not obliged to follow it since it would be opinion, though his opinion carries more credibility and weight because of his expertise in matters of theology.
 
Good question. The Pope is always a Bishop
If a non-bishop (or an unordained person) is elected Pope, he is ordained at the time of his installation.
all Bishops, by virtue of receiving the Sacrament of Ordination to the highest degree, the episcopal degree, are able to participate in the Magisterium. His promotion to the position of leader of the Bishops allows him to exercise the Magisterium in a special way, under papal infallibility. But he began to be able to exercise the Magisterium, and even to participate in exercising the infallible Magisterium, as a Bishop at his ordination.
The authority to teach is given to the Apostles and their successors. Peter and his successors may speak as their head. That’s all.
So your expectation that papal infallibility would be tied to a Sacrament is basically correct.
No. The Sacraments are vehicles of grace, not conferring of authority. Authority resides in the office. Grace is given to the person. (Matt. 23:2-3)

Bishops have authority by reason of the office to which they are ordained. They exercise that authority by the grace given to them in the sacrament of Holy Orders. (Compare marriage. By reason of having received the sacrament, the rights and responsibilities of the individuals are different from the rights and responsibilities they had before they received the sacrament. In the exercise of those rights and responsibilities they rely on the grace received in the sacrament. But the grace and the r&r are not the same thing.)

The Papacy is not a different order from the order of Bishops, hence no additional sacrament.
 
lookaround, if you are still around, here are scriptures that are used in support of Papal infallibility:

Matthew 16:18-19 Peter, the first Pope.
Luke 22:31-32 Peter’s to strengthen his brothers.
John 14:16-18 The promise of the Holy Spirit to guide.
Matthew 28:19-20 The great commission.
John 16:12-13 The Holy Spirit to remind of Jesus’ teaching and provide prophecy.
Luke 10:16 Whomever hears the Apostles hears Christ.
1 Timothy 3:15 The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Matthew 23:2-3 Jesus teaches of the authority of the seat (office) of Moses, even though Moses is long dead and the scribes and pharisees currently occupy it. However, the scribes and pharisees did not have Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth, as the Apostles did.

The epistles of 1 Peter and 2 Peter are the first Pope’s writings. They concern faith and morals and both are infallible. This was given by Jesus, just as the seven Sacraments were instituted by Him. That ability has been passed on by the laying on of hands since that day.

Please realize that Papal infallibility is very rarely used. I pray that this helps you.
 
Unlike the ordination of a Deacon, Priest, or Bishop the crowning of a Pope is not considered a sacrament. If the pope wasn’t infallible before he became pope what makes him suddenly become infallible after he becomes pope?
What changes?
It seems that you are separating Deacon Priest Bishop into separate sacraments but they are all one sacrament. They are all Holy Orders. Being Pope is not separate from being a Bishop. Pope means being ordained the Bishop of Rome. So your whole premise is wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top