Qs about Church teaching re confession from non-Catholic

[JRKH]

Ok. I was just meaning it’s hard to know who to trust. It’s also hard when people like the Most Holy Family Monastery think it’s terrible to not believe that their way is right, (I’m not sure if they think that we go to Hell for going to another church or believing another church is heretical).

When it comes to things Catholic…Trust those things that are from the Magisterium in Rome.
If you have a concern that this or that group is or is not in line with Church teaching - come and ask about them here.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Mt 18:15-18
15"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This is a wide authority to bind and loose “whatever” - specifically as related to this thread, it would be to hold a person’s sins bound - most likely because they have not expressed proper sorrow or repentance.

Let me ask, do you believe Protestants go to Heaven, not Purgatory or Hell?

Some go to each place - each is judged on his or her own merits.

Additionally, I wonder if they have considered the case of the OT saints.
It was after the resurrection though that confession became an order.

The OT saints are in heaven…after all…saint means holy one and a holy person is in heaven.

I thought the sacrament is taking Jesus Body and Blood, no?

There are 7 sacraments. the Eucharist (receiving the body and blood) is one, confession is one, marriage, baptism, confirmation, Holy Orders, Anointing of the sick round out the list.

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Again - I’m not sure what you mean by “need to confess…before we die”.
I mean if we don’t confess or intend to confess to a priest, will we go to Hell or Purgatory? Same problem about possibly dying before we manage to confess, especially if there is no perfect contrition.

I believe a quick search here will turn up many threads dealing with these questions.
Can you just give me a summary?

True we can’t avoid human error…the best we can do is act honestly on our conscience.
If I go to a priest and validly confess, then my confession is valid. If it turns out the man I confessed to was not a priest (and he knew it) any sin for this would be on his head - not mine.
But then it wouldn’t be valid, so you would need to confess to a valid priest. My point is if confession to a (valid) priest is necessary, we can’t know if someone is a truly valid priest or not and we have the same problem of possibly dying before managing to confess.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034;11906413:

So confession isn’t necessary, but perfect contrition is?

Traditionally, Catholic moral theology has distinguished between a mortal and a venial sin.
I know, but the problem is, we could commit mortal sins (or venial sins) in the future, even on the way to or from a confession.

No sin is too great to be beyond God’s mercy. That was Judas’ greatest sin.
Some people believe Judas wasn’t saved and didn’t have salvation.

“No sin is too great to be beyond God’s mercy. That was Judas’ greatest sin.” You are 110% correct here. This was Judas’ greatest sin. He didn’t ask God for His forgiveness and didn’t ask his fellow Apostles for theirs. Judas was the first Christian to skip out Confession, thinking that his sin was greater than God’s Love and Mercy.

Confession does not forgive us for our future sins. There is nothing in the Church or on Earth that forgives our future sins.

The idea that we can be “forgiven for our future sins” is a misunderstanding of indulgences, which are not part of Confession. Again, nothing forgives us for our future sins. That’s why we keep going back to Confession. But also, the act of going to Confession helps us to sin less, especially regarding the sins we often repeat. If you look at it from a secular point of view, it’s kind of like AA, but Sinners Anonymous.

God Bless and welcome to Catholic Answers.

 

[UKFaithGirl]

WHY???
But you see - this is not Catholic teaching. The Church does not teach that our salvation depends on anything other than Christ.
That is NOT true. The whole difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Protestants believe in faith alone, but Catholics do not. Catholics say they believe it depends on faith AND baptism and/or confession and/or taking sacraments.

Why should I live in terror of what might happen?
Because Catholics believe our salvation depends on it.

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Yup - we could - and I have - but thankfully not mortally.
What if you did though?

Highly unlikely - since if a person does not wish to genuinely confess…they would not bother to go.
That’s what Protestants believe.

 

[UKFaithGirl]

ukfaithgirl;11906651:

some go to each place - each is judged on his or her own merits.
So our salvation depends on merits?

The ot saints are in heaven…after all…saint means holy one and a holy person is in heaven.
Yes, but confession wasn’t a commandment back then. It only became an order after jesus’s resurrection.

There are 7 sacraments. The eucharist (receiving the body and blood) is one, confession is one, marriage, baptism, confirmation, holy orders, anointing of the sick round out the list.
Ok. Thanks.
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[phil19034]

Ok. I was just meaning it’s hard to know who to trust. It’s also hard when people like the Most Holy Family Monastery think it’s terrible to not believe that their way is right, (I’m not sure if they think that we go to Hell for going to another church or believing another church is heretical).

The “Most Holy Family Monastery” is not in communion with the Pope. They are in schism. There are many who claim to be Catholic, who are not. There are some who claim to be “more Catholic than the Pope.” However, by making the claims that they so, they show their lack of Faith in Christ because He promised to protect His Church from errors in teaching.

God Bless

 

[UKFaithGirl]

The “Most Holy Family Monastery” is not in communion with the Pope. They are in schism. There are many who claim to be Catholic, who are not. There are some who claim to be “more Catholic than the Pope.” However, by making the claims that they so, they show their lack of Faith in Christ because He promised to protect His Church from errors in teaching.
Different groups could say their version is God’s Word. We have human error. We can’t know for sure whose interpretation of old documents and teachings are correct.

God Bless
Thanks. You too.

 

[zz912]

1. What do you mean “loose to His Church”?
2. Let me ask, do you believe Protestants go to Heaven, not Purgatory or Hell?
3. It was after the resurrection though that confession became an order.
4. I thought the sacrament is taking Jesus Body and Blood, no?

1. The authority to forgive sins or not to forgive sins that Jesus gave to the Apostles. If someone was not repentant of their sins, or determined to do them again, the Apostles and today’s bishops and priests should not forgive the sins (i.e. retain them). To “loose” is to free from something. Binding and loosing also means to require some behavior of a person. If there is a particular action that Jesus has not given a command on, the Church has authority to allow or forbid it as necessary. She also has authority to require a certain level of behavior, such as attending mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, and partaking of the Eucharist at least once a year during the Easter season, and a few other requirements.
2. First, Purgatory is a “purging” of ourselves from the effects and stains of sin we have when we die. If we still have an attachment to sin when we die, Jesus purges this from us by sending us to Purgatory to purify us, because “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven”. I believe that most of the people who are going to Heaven will require some time in Purgatory. As for Protestants, I’m a convert myself. There are Protestants who will go to Heaven, and there are Protestants who will go to hell. It is MUCH easier to get to Heaven with the benefit of the sacrament of Confession.
3. True, but there was a prefigurement and form of confession in the OT. People had to confess their sins to the priest and transmit them to the animal they were offering, which was then slaughtered. We also see a great example of confession with David confessing to God’s prophet Nathan, who forgives David’s sin through the prophet.
4. There are seven sacraments that Christ instituted. Each one is channel of God’s grace.
5. Baptism
6. Confirmation
7. Eucharist
8. Confession
9. Marriage
10. Holy Orders
11. Annointing of the Sick

 

[zz912]

Different groups could say their version is God’s Word. We have human error. We can’t know for sure whose interpretation of old documents and teachings are correct.

That’s why Jesus built a Church, and He promised that the gates of hell would never prevail over His Church. That why we can relax and trust in Jesus and the Church. He didn’t leave us orphans. He left us with shepherds to guide us.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
Again - I’m not sure what you mean by “need to confess…before we die”.

Thanks…
OK - let’s see if we can break this down a bit.
What caught my eye first above is where you say that one (a Catholic) not intend to confess to a priest. Choosing not to confess means no repentance…can there be salvation without repentance?

Imperfect contrition is still contrition is it not? So with imperfect contrition one can still go to heaven. They just need some imperfections purged first - so they stop off at the place of purgation on the way to the pearly gates.

If one sincerely intend to confess but dies beforehand…the intent is sufficient…after all, Think about it…At the moment of death, they** will** be going to confession except that instead of the priest acting in personna Christi, it will be Christ Himself.
If the person is sorry for their sins, and stands before the Lord , will they not confess them directly to Him? And will He not forgive the one who is truly (even if imperfectly) sorry?

James Said:
I believe a quick search here will turn up many threads dealing with these questions.

Can you just give me a summary?

Sure - Mortal sin requires three conditions. Grave matter, full knowledge and a free choice.
In short, it must be serious, you must know it is a sin and you freely choose to do it.
In the case of Children - especially small children - these conditions cannot be met. Therefore a small child cannot commit a mortal sin.

James Said:
True we can’t avoid human error…the best we can do is act honestly on our conscience.
If I go to a priest and validly confess, then my confession is valid. If it turns out the man I confessed to was not a priest (and he knew it) any sin for this would be on his head - not mine.

But then it wouldn’t be valid, so you would need to confess to a valid priest. My point is if confession to a (valid) priest is necessary, we can’t know if someone is a truly valid priest or not and we have the same problem of possibly dying before managing to confess.

You are turning this into something rather pharisitical (is that a word…).
We get back to intent here. You INTEND to validly confess…You go to what you believe is a validly ordained priest. You honestly and sincerely confess your sins. You have fulfilled your part of the bargain (so to speak). So - your sins are forgiven.
Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Why will any Protestant Christians, (or Catholics if that’s true), go to Hell?
Protestants are Protestants because they don’t believe that dying before going to confession results in us going to Hell. Catholics believe the opposite.

As long as salvation is conditional on confession, (and hoping we don’t die before making our next confession), we should live in constant terror and fear. I don’t see how I could smile or be happy.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
WHY???
But you see - this is not Catholic teaching. The Church does not teach that our salvation depends on anything other than Christ.

With All due respect, Please do not come on a Catholic board and try to tell us what we do or do not believe.
We are very happy to share our faith with you…and answer all questions put to us…but I would ask you to please assume that what we tell you is actually TRUE!!! when we speak of what we believe.

Many people have come here who, like you, have many misunderstandings about what Catholics believe.
We can certainly have a wonderful discussion on the matter of Sola Fide and if you would like to start another thread on that issue…I’m sure you will find it most enlightening.

James said: Why should I live in terror of what might happen?

Because Catholics believe our salvation depends on it.

Not at all. Catholics believe that our salvation depends on being faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ. There need not be anything terrifying in that. If you know Catholics who are terrified…please invite them here so that we can help calm their fears.

Highly unlikely - since if a person does not wish to genuinely confess…they would not bother to go.

That’s what Protestants believe.

See - we have something in common…
Both Catholics and Protestants believe that true repentance is necessary for forgiveness.

Peace
James

 

[phil19034]

Different groups could say their version is God’s Word. We have human error. We can’t know for sure whose interpretation of old documents and teachings are correct.

What you say is true, which is why I find it logical to put my Faith in the only institution that was directly founded by God. The Catholic Church. We are a hospital for sinners, not a Museum of Saints. But for 2000 years, we have taught the exact same thing. Yes, so things have been better defined over the years, but the beliefs and Dogma of the Catholic Church is still the same.

On catholic culture.com, they have an incomplete copy of the Mass from 50 AD (some Apostles were still alive). And wi it’s a little different, a lot of it is still the same. I read it and feel at home, recognizing that its 100% Catholic and totally in line with our beliefs today.

I love being part of the fullness of the Christian Faith, today I attended the annual Chrism Mass and tonight I will attend the Mass of the Last Supper. Tomorrow, take part in Good Friday, worship Christ during the Vigil of Easter, finalizing it with Mass on Easter Sunday morning. The Church is worship of God, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit in its full glory and adoration. Taking part in the Mysteries of Faith is very humbling, inspiring and up-lifting.

Glory to God in the Highest.

God Bless

 

[Della]

Why will any Protestant Christians, (or Catholics if that’s true), go to Hell?

Only those who die unrepentant of mortal sin (remember you must know you committed mortal sin and have done it deliberately) go to hell.

Protestants are Protestants because they don’t believe that dying before going to confession results in us going to Hell. Catholics believe the opposite.

You keep repeating this as if repeating it makes it true. It’s not true, you see. We don’t believe that one who is living a consistently Christ-centered life, who only commits venial sins (as we all do) through human weakness, will go to hell if we don’t confess such sins. So, your objection is what we call a straw man–an argument made of straw.

As long as salvation is conditional on confession, (and hoping we don’t die before making our next confession), we should live in constant terror and fear. I don’t see how I could smile or be happy.

And if your idea were true, then we would indeed live in constant fear of dying. But since the Church does not teach this and we don’t believe this, either, then again you are putting forward a straw man for us to knock down. We don’t live in constant fear that if we haven’t been to confession we will go to hell. We simply don’t. We trust that, by living our lives in Christ and doing all he asks of us that we will be saved. So, problem solved.

 

[zz912]

But you see - this is not Catholic teaching. The Church does not teach that our salvation depends on anything other than Christ.

1. That is NOT true. The whole difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Protestants believe in faith alone, but Catholics do not. Catholics say they believe it depends on faith AND baptism and/or confession and/or taking sacraments.

Why should I live in terror of what might happen?
2. Because Catholics believe our salvation depends on it.

1. What does the Bible say about faith alone?

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Also, in every instance where the fate of someone is being determined, especially by Jesus, their judgment is decided based upon their actions and works.

1. Our salvation always depends on our obedience to God and turning towards Him. You can choose to be fearful of this, or filled with great happiness that God has revealed it to us. He has laid out His promises that He WILL save us, as long as we do not reject Him. He will never force His salvation upon anyone.

 

[JRKH]

Why will any Protestant Christians, (or Catholics if that’s true), go to Hell?
Protestants are Protestants because they don’t believe that dying before going to confession results in us going to Hell. Catholics believe the opposite.

As long as salvation is conditional on confession, (and hoping we don’t die before making our next confession), we should live in constant terror and fear. I don’t see how I could smile or be happy.

See - - - here is really the root of the problem in your understanding.

Catholics DO NOT believe that our salvation is “conditional” upon confession. That is - not on the formal act of confession to a priest. I don’t know where you got that idea but it is quite false.

**Salvation is conditional upon repentance…on turning away from sin and toward God. **
Salvation is conditional upon, once turning to God, that we remain steadfast in our faith. That we “run the good race” as St Paul tells us. That we seek to grow in holiness by ridding ourselves (with God’s grace) of our sinful tendencies.

It is in THIS - the growth on Sanctification that the Sacrament of Reconciliation has it’s greatest benefit. Confession is a wonderful channel for grace and peace. It is a discipline that forces us to face our sins in a very profound way. It offers the opportunity to receive advice on how to combat our sinfulness…
Many many positive things come from confession - it is not something to be feared.

Hope this helps a bit.

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Again, as long as you believe that faith alone is not enough, you believe our salvation depends on not dying before making it to our next confession, our baptism or to take part in the Eucharist.
Whether confession is the DESIRE to go to confession or to physically go, etc, if Catholics are right, our salvation depends on it, and we can only hope that we don’t die after a mortal sin but before confession. It is impossible not to live in fear if this is true.

So Protestants are either going to Purgatory or Hell?

 

[UKFaithGirl]

You quote verses, but good deeds are NOT the same as confession.