Qs about Church teaching re confession from non-Catholic

[JRKH]

Again, as long as you believe that faith alone is not enough, you believe our salvation depends on not dying before making it to our next confession, our baptism or to take part in the Eucharist.

I have hear many people use the term “faith alone” and each seems to have their own idea of that that term means.

So let me ask you What does “Faith alone” mean to you??

What does the word “Faith” mean to you?

I’m interested because - the Letter of St James says that faith alone (without action)is dead. Paul tells us that faith without Love is useless.

So - please - tell us - what does faith alone mean to you?

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Catholics DO NOT believe that our salvation is “conditional” upon confession. That is - not on the formal act of confession to a priest. I don’t know where you got that idea but it is quite false.

It sounds like it! By the way, when I say “salvation”, I mean Heaven, NOT Hell OR Purgatory.

**Salvation is conditional upon repentance…on turning away from sin and toward God. **

So faith alone is what is necessary for salvation? That is exactly what Protestants believe!

 

[Della]

Again, as long as you believe that faith alone is not enough, you believe our salvation depends on not dying before making it to our next confession, our baptism or to take part in the Eucharist.

If Sacred Tradition, which includes the Bible, btw, told us that faith alone was sufficient for salvation we would believe it and fiercely hold to it, but it doesn’t. Acceptance also entails “taking up your daily cross” to follow Christ. It is grace that saves through faith, which is the gift of God, not faith alone or works alone. Faith and works of love and mercy are both gifts of God’s grace. So, it is God’s grace by which we are saved through faith made active through our good works. So, you see that we don’t believe we need to get to confession before dying (we’ve explained that enough). It is the NT that tells us baptism saves and the Eucharist gives us saving grace. It’s not as you think of it–an burdensome duty, but an opportunity to be made one with Christ through repentance and the reception of his Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Whether confession is the DESIRE to go to confession or to physically go, etc, if Catholics are right, our salvation depends on it, and we can only hope that we don’t die after a mortal sin but before confession. It is impossible not to live in fear if this is true.

How so? Again you have to deliberately commit mortal sin. Those who are living in Christ generally don’t commit mortal sins, and most who do do so not as an act of defiance but through some weakness, which mitigates their culpability. We know that God understands our weaknesses and that he is merciful as well as just. We trust in him to keep us in his grace so that we don’t commit mortal sins. But, a perfect act of contrition is enough. That is to know that our sin have harmed us and others and offended God, not merely that we might go to hell for committing it. When someone understands what perfect contrition is, they are much less likely to commit a mortal sin to begin with.

So Protestants are either going to Purgatory or Hell?

Purgatory, probably. Hell? Only if they meet all the criteria for being culpable for mortal sin. God does not judge people by what they could not know–that would be unfair, and God is not unfair.

 

[phil19034]

Again, as long as you believe that faith alone is not enough, you believe our salvation depends on not dying before making it to our next confession, our baptism or to take part in the Eucharist.
Whether confession is the DESIRE to go to confession or to physically go, etc, if Catholics are right, our salvation depends on it, and we can only hope that we don’t die after a mortal sin but before confession. It is impossible not to live in fear if this is true.

So Protestants are either going to Purgatory or Hell?

Can we agree that someone can believe in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit but choose to with deny or turn his/her back on God? If so, then “Faith Alone” isn’t enough. One must “work” out his or salvation by making their Faith a reflection in their every day life.

One cannot be a hypocrite. We must attempt to practice what we believe. That’s where the term “practicing Catholic” or “practicing Christian” comes from. It’s not enough to have faith and not put into practice the teachings of Christ. These are the “works” Catholics believe in.

We believe that Faith is equally important has practicing our Faith and doing good works. We do these good works because we want to be more Holy, not because we want to. Catholic Hospitals, Universities, missions, etc, are all done by Catholic people (not the Church) in our quest to become more Holy.

But after everything we do, most (if not all) of us (Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants) will most likely to to Purgatory first. Then, we will enter Heaven once the affects of sin have been purged from our souls.

God Bless

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Can we agree that someone can believe in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit but choose to with deny or turn his/her back on God? If so, then “Faith Alone” isn’t enough. One must “work” out his or salvation by making their Faith a reflection in their every day life.

I think we can believe something to be true, but not sometimes reflect it in our lives. My sister, for example, believes in Jesus, His death and resurrection, but it is not obvious from her life that she believes. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t genuinely believe it. Also, sometimes we don’t know how to put things into action, plus we sin.
It is not encouraged, but it is possible to believe in something but not do good deeds. Catholics say they believe without confession we will go to Purgatory or Hell.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
Catholics DO NOT believe that our salvation is “conditional” upon confession. That is - not on the formal act of confession to a priest. I don’t know where you got that idea but it is quite false.

So faith alone is what is necessary for salvation? That is exactly what Protestants believe!

Is this what you mean when you say “faith alone”? Repentance and turning toward God?
Sounds very Catholic. So - just what might be involved in this repentance and turning toward God?

Peace
James

[/QUOTE]

 

[UKFaithGirl]

For 1ke:
Confession is necessary for mortal sins. A person who is in perpetual fear of committing mortal sins needs professional help. Mortal sins are serious sins that completely sever our relationship with God.
Everyone should fear they might sin. Anyway, that’s not the point. As long as confession is necessary, we live in fear of doing a mortal sin.

I seriously doubt one easily commits a mortal sin on the way home from confession. Is one going to stop by a bank to rob it on the way home from confession? Pick up a prostitute? What grave sin are they going to commit on the way home from confession?
You can doubt it, but it’s possible. Can you really say in the future, on the way home from confession, you won’t commit a mortal sin? Or before you die? At what point do we die? What is the last moment we can confess?

In such a case, I highly doubt such a person would have been concerned with confession in the first place.
Well the fear of Hell is a terrible one. I doubt you don’t fear it at all. We can want to do the right thing but not be able to. So you’re saying if the person’s motivation for confession is the fear of Hell, they won’t have salvation because their motives were selfish?

 

[JRKH]

I think we can believe something to be true, but not sometimes reflect it in our lives. My sister, for example, believes in Jesus, His death and resurrection, but it is not obvious from her life that she believes. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t genuinely believe it.

I do not wish to pass judgement on your sister…but this is the example placed before us…
What does Scripture say about those who “Cry Lord Lord” but have nor reformed their lives - have not done the will of the father.
By your own words you have said that faith means repenting your sins and turning toward God…but if this is not “obvious” in one’s life…how can one say they “genuinely believes it”.
Belief - yes possibly - but faith???

Also, sometimes we don’t know how to put things into action,

Oh yes this is very true…we all struggle with this…

plus we sin.

Yup - which is why I am grateful for confession.

It is not encouraged, but it is possible to believe in something but not do good deeds.

There is a good reason why it is not encouraged…because Scripture tells us that faith without works is dead.

Catholics say they believe without confession we will go to Purgatory or Hell.

Well - we have tried to explain some of the flaws in your understanding…
You have a very legalistic and narrow view of confession - one that does not accurately reflect what the Church believes and teaches on the matter.
If you would like to know exactly what the Church teaches on the the sacrament of reconciliation you can read all about it HERE

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Everyone should fear they might sin. Anyway, that’s not the point. As long as confession is necessary, we live in fear of doing a mortal sin.

I do not live in fear of committing a mortal sin…and I believe confession is necessary.
I don’t understand why you seem to insist that such fear is necessary?
You seem to have a terrible image of God if you think this way.

You can doubt it, but it’s possible. Can you really say in the future, on the way home from confession, you won’t commit a mortal sin?

What are the odds? That is the point. You are putting things out that are so unlikely as to be not worthy of consideration.

Or before you die? At what point do we die? What is the last moment we can confess?

I addressed this in an earlier post - did you see it?

If we die before we can confess to our priest (who acts in personna Christi) we simply confess to Christ in person for any sins we are truly sorry for. So you see - there is no problem here.

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

I do not live in fear of committing a mortal sin…and I believe confession is necessary.
I don’t understand why you seem to insist that such fear is necessary?
You seem to have a terrible image of God if you think this way.

What are the odds? That is the point. You are putting things out that are so unlikely as to be not worthy of consideration.

I addressed this in an earlier post - did you see it?

If we die before we can confess to our priest (who acts in personna Christi) we simply confess to Christ in person for any sins we are truly sorry for. So you see - there is no problem here.

Peace
James

These points were for 1ke.

 

[JRKH]

These points were for 1ke.

I know - but this is an open forum - and I had something to offer that I thought was worthwhile…

I know Ike pretty well and I know he would not mind my commenting…

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

I don’t understand why you seem to insist that such fear is necessary?
I say it’s necessary because we are sinners and we can’t predict what sins we will do in the future. It would be arrogant to say we won’t commit a mortal sin.

What are the odds?
It doesn’t matter what the odds are, it’s a possibility.

If we die before we can confess to our priest (who acts in personna Christi) we simply confess to Christ in person for any sins we are truly sorry for. So you see - there is no problem here.
So you admit, it is not necessary to confess to a priest, only to God.

I was making the points in reply to 1ke.

I think I have the answers now, though not for 1ke. Most Catholics believe that the following are necessary for salvation:

1. faith
2. good deeds and
3. the DESIRE to go to confession to a priest (or maybe God alone)

I guess we just have to hope that, our reasons for doing good deeds are good, (not out of fear or just for the sake of them), and that we do enough of them and that we have the desire to confess, are enough for salvation. I will just say one more thing: It seems to imply that what Jesus did for us on the cross for us was on its own is not enough and inadequate. It also implies that anyone who tries to add their good works to what Jesus did does not understand what He did.

 

[UKFaithGirl]

I know - but this is an open forum - and I had something to offer that I thought was worthwhile…

I know Ike pretty well and I know he would not mind my commenting…

Peace
James

Oh I know. I wasn’t meaning that. I just didn’t want you to think that I wasn’t looking at your answers or ignoring them, as you had already mentioned some replies to some of my questions.

 

[fencersmother]

Dear UKGirl, you said this: Protestants are Protestants because they don’t believe that dying before going to confession results in us going to Hell.

This is the very root of your difficulty. Protestants are protestants because they do not submit to the Authority of the Church. This rebellion may include the mistaken beliefs you have outlined, but basically, it is a question of authority. Protestants rely on their own faculties, instead of the pillar of faith, the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church.

To which branch of rebellion do you belong?

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
I don’t understand why you seem to insist that such fear is necessary?

I disagree that it is arrogant. Inaccurate perhaps but not arrogant.
Tonight is Holy Thursday - the night we celebrate the last supper…and at that supper Peter states that he will never deny Christ. Yet we know he does so later.
Was Peter being arrogant? I don’t think he was…But he was mistaken.
He then turned back to Christ and was forgiven…

If we die before we can confess to our priest (who acts in personna Christi) we simply confess to Christ in person for any sins we are truly sorry for. So you see - there is no problem here

.
So you admit, it is not necessary to confess to a priest, only to God.

I admit that when I go to confession (as commanded by my Lord Jesus Christ) I am confessing to Him - not to the priest.
As I have mentioned repeatedly - the priest acts in persona Christi. He does so in accordance with Jesus own words in Johns Gospel to forgive sins or to hold them bound.
You - in you theology - seem to want to fault us for obeying our Lord Jesus.

I think I have the answers now, though not for 1ke. Most Catholics believe that the following are necessary for salvation:

1. faith
2. good deeds and
3. the DESIRE to go to confession to a priest (or maybe God alone)

Number two is a part of number one - not a separate thing - they are intertwined - without works (good deeds) faith is dead and a dead faith cannot save.
As for number three…your understanding still needs work…but hopefully you will read the Catechism section that I linked earlier and, if yo uhave other questions, come on back and ask them.

I guess we just have to hope that, our reasons for doing good deeds are good, (not out of fear or just for the sake of them), and that we do enough of them and that we have the desire to confess, are enough for salvation.

We keep walking the walk, hoping to grow in our love and understanding. The rest we trust to God for.

will just say one more thing: It seems to imply that what Jesus did for us on the cross for us was on its own is not enough and inadequate. It also implies that anyone who tries to add their good works to what Jesus did does not understand what He did.

Yes there are those who want to see Catholic teaching as implying this - - but actually it does not.
The longer you are here, and talk with the good folks here about what we actually believe, the more you will come to understand this.

God Bless you

Peace
James

 

[UKFaithGirl]

This is the very root of your difficulty. Protestants are protestants because they do not submit to the Authority of the Church. This rebellion may include the mistaken beliefs you have outlined, but basically, it is a question of authority. Protestants rely on their own faculties, instead of the pillar of faith, the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church.

To which branch of rebellion do you belong?

You can judge me? Jesus said to not judge others. I am a Christian, not Protestant or Catholic, but trying to be humble and learn more about God. Catholics always seem very quick to judge others.

 

[UKFaithGirl]

You keep repeating this as if repeating it makes it true. It’s not true, you see. We don’t believe that one who is living a consistently Christ-centered life, who only commits venial sins (as we all do) through human weakness, will go to hell if we don’t confess such sins. So, your objection is what we call a straw man–an argument made of straw.
You saying something doesn’t make it true either. Still, the same point remains about mortal sin.

 

[UKFaithGirl]

I disagree that it is arrogant. Inaccurate perhaps but not arrogant.
Ok, inaccurate. It proves that we can’t say we won’t commit mortal sins in the future. To think we are above sinning like that in the future though is arrogant.

I admit that when I go to confession (as commanded by my Lord Jesus Christ) I am confessing to Him - not to the priest.
As I have mentioned repeatedly - the priest acts in persona Christi. He does so in accordance with Jesus own words in Johns Gospel to forgive sins or to hold them bound.
Ok, so it is the desire for confession to Jesus which is necessary, not to a priest. We can do that anywhere, any time, (though we still need to hope that there is no time between asking for forgiveness for our last sin and not wanting to confess for our next sins).
You - in you theology - seem to want to fault us for obeying our Lord Jesus.
I want to obey Jesus. I just also don’t want to live my life in fear unnecessarily.

Number two is a part of number one - not a separate thing - they are intertwined - without works (good deeds) faith is dead and a dead faith cannot save.
So good works are necessary, so my conclusion was right. Let’s just hope we do enough if you’re right and that we do them for the right reason.

As for number three…your understanding still needs work…
I think I understand it, having got answers on here, hence my conclusion. Let’s just hope there is no time between our last confessions and our desire for our next confessions. Otherwise, we could all be damned!

 

[UKFaithGirl]

Catholicism still implies that what Jesus did for us on the cross for us was on its own not enough and inadequate. It also implies that anyone who tries to add their good works to what Jesus did does not understand what He did.

 

[JRKH]

Ok, inaccurate. It proves that we can’t say we won’t commit mortal sins in the future. To think we are above sinning like that in the future though is arrogant.

I heartily agree with this. But there is a great range of possibilites between the word you use here “arrogant” (or what we sometimes refer to as presumption) - and the other word you have been using regularly - “Terror” (which we sometimes refer to as despair).
The right balance is probably - Trust in God on on the one hand with a profound humility on the other.

I admit that when I go to confession (as commanded by my Lord Jesus Christ) I am confessing to Him - not to the priest.
As I have mentioned repeatedly - the priest acts in persona Christi. He does so in accordance with Jesus own words in Johns Gospel to forgive sins or to hold them bound.

Ok, so it is the desire for confession to Jesus which is necessary, not to a priest. We can do that anywhere, any time,

Yes we can - but in the case of serious sin (or habitual sin) we need to follow Jesus command that we “listen to the Church” - that we seek out those whom he gave authority to forgive sins - and that is the priests of His Holy Church.

(though we still need to hope that there is no time between asking for forgiveness for our last sin and not wanting to confess for our next sins).

See - this is the unfounded fear that seems to haunt you…I know of no Catholic who has such a fear…

You - in you theology - seem to want to fault us for obeying our Lord Jesus.

I want to obey Jesus. I just also don’t want to live my life in fear unnecessarily.

Nor do we - - and frankly - we do not.
As I said - I know of no Catholic who has this fear…except for those who occasionally show up here at CAF. Such people suffer from Scruples and we advise them to seek help for such outlook is not what God intends.

Number two is a part of number one - not a separate thing - they are intertwined - without works (good deeds) faith is dead and a dead faith cannot save.

So good works are necessary, so my conclusion was right. Let’s just hope we do enough if you’re right and that we do them for the right reason.

Yes - your conclusion is quite right. Works are necessary…Our Lord tells us so in the Scriptures.

As for number three…your understanding still needs work…
I think I understand it, having got answers on here, hence my conclusion.

Let’s just hope there is no time between our last confessions and our desire for our next confessions. Otherwise, we could all be damned!

Well - I’m not sure if I am reading you right…what you write just doesn’t sound right.
Yet in careful examination - - it is correct to say that we should always desire to confess…when we sin…but we should desire even more to have nothing TO confess.
To grow in Love and in Holiness. To become perfected in Love as we are told we must in (Mt 5:48)

So my friend - do not live in fear…Live in Love…and act on that Love…and Trust all else to the Lord…

Peace
James