Queen of Heaven

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Angainor said:
Jesus’ advocacy is enough.
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Rom 8:26: Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.

You may possibly want to advocate not praying for each other as well.

(A charismatic used the above verse on another board to say Jesus doesn’t intercede for us any more :bigyikes: :hypno: , had to remind him of v34 )

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
From AD CAELI REGINAM
  1. From early times Christians have believed, and not without reason, that she of whom was born the Son of the Most High received privileges of grace above all other beings created by God. He “will reign in the house of Jacob forever,”[5] “the Prince of Peace,”[6] the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”[7] And when Christians reflected upon the intimate connection that obtains between a mother and a son, they readily acknowledged the supreme royal dignity of the Mother of God.
  2. Hence it is not surprising that the early writers of the Church called Mary “the Mother of the King” and “the Mother of the Lord,” basing their stand on the words of St. Gabriel the archangel, who foretold that the Son of Mary would reign forever,[8] and on the words of Elizabeth who greeted her with reverence and called her “the Mother of my Lord.”[9] Thereby they clearly signified that she derived a certain eminence and exalted station from the royal dignity of her Son.
  3. So it is that St. Ephrem, burning with poetic inspiration, represents her as speaking in this way: “Let Heaven sustain me in its embrace, because I am honored above it. For heaven was not Thy mother, but Thou hast made it Thy throne. How much more honorable and venerable than the throne of a king is her mother.”[10] And in another place he thus prays to her: “. . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me.”[11]
  4. St. Gregory Nazianzen calls Mary “the Mother of the King of the universe,” and the “Virgin Mother who brought forth the King of the whole world,”[12] while Prudentius asserts that the Mother marvels “that she has brought forth God as man, and even as Supreme King.”[13]
  5. And this royal dignity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is quite clearly indicated through direct assertion by those who call her “Lady,” “Ruler” and “Queen.”
  6. In one of the homilies attributed to Origen, Elizabeth calls Mary “the Mother of my Lord.” and even addresses her as “Thou, my Lady.”[14]
  7. The same thing is found in the writings of St. Jerome where he makes the following statement amidst various interpretations of Mary’s name: “We should realize that Mary means Lady in the Syrian Language.”[15] After him St. Chrysologus says the same thing more explicitly in these words: “The Hebrew word ‘Mary’ means ‘Domina.’ The Angel therefore addresses her as ‘Lady’ to preclude all servile fear in the Lord’s Mother, who was born and was called ‘Lady’ by the authority and command of her own Son.”[16]
  8. Moreover Epiphanius, the bishop of Constantinople, writing to the Sovereign Pontiff Hormisdas, says that we should pray that the unity of the Church may be preserved “by the grace of the holy and consubstantial Trinity and by the prayers of Mary, Our Lady, the holy and glorious Virgin and Mother of God.”[17]
  9. The Blessed Virgin, sitting at the right hand of God to pray for us is hailed by another writer of that same era in these words, “the Queen[17a] of mortal man, the most holy Mother of God.”[18]
  10. St. Andrew of Crete frequently attributes the dignity of a Queen to the Virgin Mary. For example, he writes, “Today He transports from her earthly dwelling, as Queen of the human race, His ever-Virgin Mother, from whose womb He, the living God, took on human form.”[19]
  11. And in another place he speaks of “the Queen of the entire human race faithful to the exact meaning of her name, who is exalted above all things save only God himself.”[20]
  12. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: “Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.”[21] He likewise calls her the “Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.”[22]
  13. She is called by St. John Damascene “Queen, ruler, and lady,”[23] and also “the Queen of every creature.”[24] Another ancient writer of the Eastern Church calls her “favored Queen,” “the perpetual Queen beside the King, her son,” whose “snow-white brow is crowned with a golden diadem.”[25]
  14. And finally St. Ildephonsus of Toledo gathers together almost all of her titles of honor in this salutation: “O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.”[26]
  15. The theologians of the Church, deriving their teaching from these and almost innumerable other testimonies handed down long ago, have called the most Blessed Virgin the Queen of all creatures, the Queen of the world, and the Ruler of all.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Are you saying you have never asked anyone to pray for you in your lifetime? Or that you have never prayed on behalf of anyone else?
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No, I don’t make a habit of asking people to pray for me. I can’t say I recall doing that.
 
Angainor said:
No, I don’t make a habit of asking people to pray for me. I can’t say I recall doing that.
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I see.

Well, the reason that I asked is that I have a copy of Luther’s Small Catechism here…published in 1986 by Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis (gotta love that irony).

Question 201 reads as follows:
  1. For whom should we pray?
We should pray for ourselves and for all other people, even for our enemies, but not for the souls of the dead.

1 Tim 2:1-2, Mt 5:44, Heb 9:27 are all cited in the text among other passages.

I disagree with the prohibition against praying for the dead, but it seems at the very least that the Lutheran Church advocates prayer for one another.

Thoughts?
 
Randy_Carson said:
I see.

Well, the reason that I asked is that I have a copy of Luther’s Small Catechism here…
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So you set a trap. That’s OK.
Question 201 reads as follows:
  1. For whom should we pray?
We should pray for ourselves and for all other people, even for our enemies, but not for the souls of the dead.

Thoughts?
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Yes, we should pray for other people. However, I don’t think you will find anything that advocates asking other people to pray for you.

You guys are actually making a pretty good case. I still don’t think those that have passed on before me can hear my prayers, but Hebrews 12:1 is interesting.

Also, if I were praying to a specific person, I would be presuming that person was among the saints. It might be a pretty good presumption, but I don’t believe we can ever know the state of another’s soul for certain (Papal proclamations notwithstanding).

If saints can hear me and if I can be reasonably certain who is a saint, then I agree that it comes down to if it is wise as a general practice to go around asking any other persons to pray for you instead of taking it straight to Jesus, the Father, or the Spirit. To that I personally say no, so the rest doesn’t make much difference. However, I wouldn’t think less of anyone who did ask other people to pray for him.
 
Axion said:
A woman about to give birth is referred to as “a great and wondrous sign”. This is a parallel to the passage in Isaiah 7.14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman’u-el. The woman giving birth, who is a great sign in both passages. is Mary.
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So the Scriptures mention signs or wonders ***everywhere on its pages ***but you will pick one to suit your interpretation?

And you do this by specifically ignoring the very sign our Lord gave.

The sign He gave is interpreted by Himself in Genesis. It is, without doubt, Israel and all Twelve Tribes.
In Revelation, she is shown crowned in heaven.
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As is Satan…seven times over.

No.

John knows Mary. He never identified any Mary in Revelation.
Verse 9 tells us that this dragon is Satan. The stars in the sky are in revelation symbols of gods Angels. The third that the devil’s tail swept out of heaven are the rebel angels who followed Satan and became demons.
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Yes.
The dragon (satan) is at enmity with the woman and her child. This refers back to the oldest reference to the Gospel in Scripture - the protogospel of Genesis 3.14
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And nowhere is Mary in there.
Here we find the same three protagonists as in Revelation 12: The woman, her seed (Jesus), and the serpent/dragon.
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No. The Protogospel speaks of four. You have forgotten Satan’s seed.

Also, Satan is not a protagonist here, but an antagonist.
The dragon tries to slay the child. This is evidenced by Herod’s plot to slay the baby Jesus the moment He was born. The dragon fails, both then and later - at the crucifixion - and Jesus is taken up to heaven.
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Yes.
Rev 126 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
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In terms of Mary. She twice had to flee persecution as recorded in Scripture. Once, soon after the birth of Jesus, escaping from Herod’s assassins, or else much later as recorded in Acts at the first persecution of Christians after Stephen’s death, when all Christians had to flee Jerusalem.
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No.

The witness of Revelation is that whoever this woman is, she flees AFTER the ascension of Christ.

Secondly, there is absolutely no record that Mary fled anywhere during the persecution…neither in Scripture or in the historical record. The church in Jerusalem was thriving during this time, and even the council was held there.

All the Christians SURELY did not flee Jerusalem. You are inserting your own opinions and making up your own details as you go here.
The flood of water is an attack upon the woman by Satan. This is taken to be the flood of slanders and heresies that immediately rose up against all those connected with Jesus and the Church, These are certainly from Satan.
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No.

The witness of Revelation says that this woman is attacked herself. That this woman herself is given refuge for three and a half years. That she is given the wings of an eagle to bear her to safety.

There is no record in Scripture or in history that Mary did any of this.

Actually, the early church witnesses that these events will happen at the end of the age…when Mary is long passed on.
The dragon makes war on the rest of the Woman’s offspring. The “other offspring” are taken to be the members of the Church. In terms of the Woman as Mary, this is also a confirmation of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of all Christians.
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No. Scripture is also abundantly clear that the members of Christ’s church are Sarah’s spiritual children, not Mary’s.

No.

The woman is Israel. God gave us no other options. It was an open book test.
  • Israel is described as a woman all through Scripture.
  • Israel are the only people specifically identified with the Sun, Moon, and twelve stars.
  • Israel is shining bright with God’s glory in Scripture.
  • Israel is regularly spoken of in Scripture as being in great labor pains. That is even against the historic teaching of the RCC for Mary.
  • Israel has a crown given by God
  • Israel is spoken of often in the Scriptures as bringing forth the Messiah.
Israel, Israel, Israel…every time.

God gave us a sign to make a right, and you are making a left.

…
 
Atemi said:
So the Scriptures mention signs or wonders ***everywhere on its pages ***but you will pick one to suit your interpretation?

And you do this by specifically ignoring the very sign our Lord gave.
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He isn’t. He is putting out that fact the God will give a sign, “a virgin shall conceived and bear a son.” The virgin birth itself is the sign that the Messiah is to come. By the Power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was born into this world from a woman. Mary.
John knows Mary. He never identified any Mary in Revelation.
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Wrong again. John in Gospel often called Mary woman. He invoke this "woman again in Revelation. We know this is Mary because this woman gave birth to a Male Child who will rule all nations. He was taken up into heaven into his thrown.

This Child is Jesus. John knew this and the ECF affirm to this as well.

Let me make it clear that Mary is the Mother of All Christians., Are we not made brothers and sisters in Christ through baptism? Isn’t Mary the Mother of Jesus? So yes, she is Our spiritual mother. Even Jesus gave John his Mother. “Man, behold your Mother.”

John is represent all of us, so when Jesus gave Mary his Mother to John, she is therefore is our mother as well. I don’t expect you to understand or accept this. I expect you to see the Catholic position on this matter.

I see no point that you can convince us Catholics that you are right. We disagree with you strongly. You ought to respect Our Belief and not change our mind. Do not bother converting us with your idea of Sola Scriptura by destroying the Queen of Heaven.

I also acknowledge that since Jesus is Jewish King, he fullfilled the OT Messiah. Just as Jewish Kings have mothers as their Queen. Therefore, Jesus gave Mary, His mother the Queenship.

It is not her honor but to Her Son. She all people drawn into Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church affirms this fully.

Just as Fr. Corapi said, “If she is good enough for Jesus. She is good enough for us.”
 
Angainor said:
So you set a trap. That’s OK.Yes, we should pray for other people. However, I don’t think you will find anything that advocates asking other people to pray for you.

You guys are actually making a pretty good case. I still don’t think those that have passed on before me can hear my prayers, but Hebrews 12:1 is interesting.

Also, if I were praying to a specific person, I would be presuming that person was among the saints. It might be a pretty good presumption, but I don’t believe we can ever know the state of another’s soul for certain (Papal proclamations notwithstanding).

If saints can hear me and if I can be reasonably certain who is a saint, then I agree that it comes down to if it is wise as a general practice to go around asking any other persons to pray for you instead of taking it straight to Jesus, the Father, or the Spirit. To that I personally say no, so the rest doesn’t make much difference. However, I wouldn’t think less of anyone who did ask other people to pray for him.
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Acts 9:40
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Apparently, at least one dead woman was able to hear the voice of the living! Lazarus did too, but Jesus is God, so I’ll not cite that example specifically.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Randy_Carson said:
Acts 9:40
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Apparently, at least one dead woman was able to hear the voice of the living! Lazarus did too, but Jesus is God, so I’ll not cite that example specifically.
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This is a little misleading if we use this as proof that God’s people are to pray to the dead.

Jesus talked to the dead, did He not?

The problem here is that Jesus also spoke directly to illnesses, demons, wind, trees, and the sea.

None of this, in any fashion whatsoever, is evidence that God’s people should be praying to illnesses, demons, wind, trees, and the sea.

No.

…
 
HailMary said:
Because they don’t understand the Scriptures.
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The Apostles and the early church never called Mary “Queen of Heaven” either.

I guess they also did not understand the Scriptures.

It is a good thing everyone centuries after all those martyrs got to finally “understand the Scriptures” and get it right.

…
 
Atemi said:
This is a little misleading if we use this as proof that God’s people are to pray to the dead.

Jesus talked to the dead, did He not?

The problem here is that Jesus also spoke directly to illnesses, demons, wind, trees, and the sea.

None of this, in any fashion whatsoever, is evidence that God’s people should be praying to illnesses, demons, wind, trees, and the sea.

No.

…
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Peter spoke to a dead person, and she heard him.

This contradicts those who say that the dead cannot hear us thus making prayers to the saints meaningless.

This is significant, and I

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
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