Queen of Heaven

[Randy_Carson]

The Apostles and the early church never called Mary “Queen of Heaven” either.

I guess they also did not understand the Scriptures.

It is a good thing everyone centuries after all those martyrs got to finally “understand the Scriptures” and get it right.

…

No one in the “Early Church” called God a trinity either.

That, too, took awhile to sort out.

Sheesh.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Apostles and the early church never called Mary “Queen of Heaven” either.

Huh?

I’ll post this again since you missed it the first time…

From AD CAELI REGINAM

1. From early times Christians have believed, and not without reason, that she of whom was born the Son of the Most High received privileges of grace above all other beings created by God. He “will reign in the house of Jacob forever,”[5] “the Prince of Peace,”[6] the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”[7] And **when Christians reflected upon the intimate connection that obtains between a mother and a son, they readily acknowledged the supreme royal dignity of the Mother of God. **
2. Hence it is not surprising that the early writers of the Church called Mary “the Mother of the King” and “the Mother of the Lord,” basing their stand on the words of St. Gabriel the archangel, who foretold that the Son of Mary would reign forever,[8] and on the words of Elizabeth who greeted her with reverence and called her “the Mother of my Lord.”[9] Thereby they clearly signified that she derived a certain eminence and exalted station from the royal dignity of her Son.
3. So it is that St. Ephrem, burning with poetic inspiration, represents her as speaking in this way: “Let Heaven sustain me in its embrace, because I am honored above it. For heaven was not Thy mother, but Thou hast made it Thy throne. How much more honorable and venerable than the throne of a king is her mother.”[10] And in another place he thus prays to her: “. . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me.”[11]
4. St. Gregory Nazianzen calls Mary “the Mother of the King of the universe,” and the “Virgin Mother who brought forth the King of the whole world,”[12] while Prudentius asserts that the Mother marvels “that she has brought forth God as man, and even as Supreme King.”[13]
5. And this royal dignity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is quite clearly indicated through direct assertion by those who call her “Lady,” “Ruler” and “Queen.”
6. In one of the homilies attributed to Origen, Elizabeth calls Mary “the Mother of my Lord.” and even addresses her as “Thou, my Lady.”[14]
7. The same thing is found in the writings of St. Jerome where he makes the following statement amidst various interpretations of Mary’s name: “We should realize that Mary means Lady in the Syrian Language.”[15] After him St. Chrysologus says the same thing more explicitly in these words: “The Hebrew word ‘Mary’ means ‘Domina.’ The Angel therefore addresses her as ‘Lady’ to preclude all servile fear in the Lord’s Mother, who was born and was called ‘Lady’ by the authority and command of her own Son.”[16]
8. Moreover Epiphanius, the bishop of Constantinople, writing to the Sovereign Pontiff Hormisdas, says that we should pray that the unity of the Church may be preserved “by the grace of the holy and consubstantial Trinity and by the prayers of Mary, Our Lady, the holy and glorious Virgin and Mother of God.”[17]
9. The Blessed Virgin, sitting at the right hand of God to pray for us is hailed by another writer of that same era in these words, “the Queen[17a] of mortal man, the most holy Mother of God.”[18]
10. St. Andrew of Crete frequently attributes the dignity of a Queen to the Virgin Mary. For example, he writes, “Today He transports from her earthly dwelling, as Queen of the human race, His ever-Virgin Mother, from whose womb He, the living God, took on human form.”[19]
11. And in another place he speaks of “the Queen of the entire human race faithful to the exact meaning of her name, who is exalted above all things save only God himself.”[20]
12. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: “Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.”[21] He likewise calls her the “Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.”[22]
13. She is called by St. John Damascene “Queen, ruler, and lady,”[23] and also “the Queen of every creature.”[24] Another ancient writer of the Eastern Church calls her “favored Queen,” “the perpetual Queen beside the King, her son,” whose “snow-white brow is crowned with a golden diadem.”[25]

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

1. And finally St. Ildephonsus of Toledo gathers together almost all of her titles of honor in this salutation: “O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.”[26]

**22. The theologians of the Church, deriving their teaching from these and almost innumerable other testimonies handed down long ago, have called the most Blessed Virgin the Queen of all creatures, the Queen of the world, and the Ruler of all. **

 

[NotWorthy]

The Apostles and the early church never called Mary “Queen of Heaven” either.

I guess they also did not understand the Scriptures.

It is a good thing everyone centuries after all those martyrs got to finally “understand the Scriptures” and get it right.

…

For someone who doesn’t believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Sacrament of Forgiveness, Anointing of the Sick, prayers for the dead, (maybe) infant baptism, or a Church Hierarchy, etc…, I’m not sure if I’d be using the early Church and the Apostles as a proof-text for Mary’s role as “'Queen of Heaven”…

 

[Randy_Carson]

For someone who doesn’t believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Sacrament of Forgiveness, Anointing of the Sick, prayers for the dead, (maybe) infant baptism, or a Church Hierarchy, etc…, I’m not sure if I’d be using the early Church and the Apostles as a proof-text for Mary’s role as “'Queen of Heaven”…

He wants to use ancient Catholics against modern Catholics to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong.

 

[NotWorthy]

He wants to use ancient Catholics against modern Catholics to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong.

And I’m trying to show that ancienct Catholics ARE modern Catholics. Those doctrines that I listed have been easily identifiable in the Apostolic Times of the Church. It’s sort of ludicrous to claim that Mary was not heralded as Queen of Heaven while ignoring the other tenets of the Church.

If Mary was not regarded as the “Queen of Heaven” by the early church, you can’t rule out the fact that:

a) Revelation was hotly debated as to whether it was canonical or not. Early Church Fathers may have been wary of using it to formulate any doctrines of the Church.

b) Jesus’ nature - True God AND True Man - were not reconciled until the late 300’s (I think). How can you consider Mary as Mother of God or Queen of Heaven until you “get your hands around” the nature of Jesus?

As you well know, that would be putting the cart before the horse, and everyone knows that Catholics don’t do this!

 

[Beyrak]

For someone who doesn’t believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Sacrament of Forgiveness, Anointing of the Sick, prayers for the dead, (maybe) infant baptism, or a Church Hierarchy, etc…, I’m not sure if I’d be using the early Church and the Apostles as a proof-text for Mary’s role as “'Queen of Heaven”…

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:

 

[Atemi]

For someone who doesn’t believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Sacrament of Forgiveness, Anointing of the Sick, prayers for the dead, (maybe) infant baptism, or a Church Hierarchy, etc…, I’m not sure if I’d be using the early Church and the Apostles as a proof-text for Mary’s role as “'Queen of Heaven”…

For one, why not?

Is it not relevant?

Secondly, I believe in Christ’s real presence when we are gathered together in His Name for the Eucharist.

There was no sacrament of Penance and confession of sins to any priests in the early church.

The early church did not teach that infants were to be water baptised.

And I believe in the anointing of the sick.

To say you follow the faith of the early church necessitates that people will see if what you say you believe was taught by that same church.

Queen of Heaven is not there.

Sorry.

 

[Beyrak]

The early church did not teach that infants were to be water baptised.

Hmm, didn’t Acts 15 when Peter the first Pope decided that infant males no longer needed to be circumcised, but baptised instead sort of take care of that issue.

Arguing early church fathers weren’t catholic is sort of like eating cotton candy after eating a stack of babyback ribs soaked in bbq sauce with no napkins. It gets messy.

 

[NotWorthy]

For one, why not?

Is it not relevant?

Secondly, I believe in Christ’s real presence when we are gathered together in His Name for the Eucharist.

Good for you!!! I jumped to the conclusion that since you were non-Catholic that you didn’t believe Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist. It seems like you guys are among the minority in non-Catholic Christians, but I’m sorry for making that assumption.

There was no sacrament of Penance and confession of sins to any priests in the early church.

Yes, there was. And besides, it’s biblical. How come if something is Biblical, people’s first accusation is “Well, it’s not in the early Church”. And if somethng is in the early Church, people’s first accusation is “Well, it’s not Biblical”.

The early church did not teach that infants were to be water baptised.

The Church in the first century baptized infants as evidenced by Catachombs in Rome.

And I believe in the anointing of the sick.

Again, you seem to be a minority, but because of the neck of the woods where I live, that’s just an oddity on my part. My sincere apologies.

To say you follow the faith of the early church necessitates that people will see if what you say you believe was taught by that same church.

The Early Church taught the Development of Doctrine. There were some early writings on Mary as Queen of Heaven, as some people have proved on this site, but Mary’s Queenship, as well as her title “Mother of God” were not clarified until after the Church could reconcile Herself to the natures of Jesus Christ.

With the rampant spread of Aryanism, there was no way you could resolve whether Mary was Mother of God (which would have to be developed first before you can authoritatively say she is Queen of Heaven) until you coud come to grips with the fact that Jesus Christ is True God AND True Man. This was not officially resolved until Chalcedon, and even then there were still disputes.

 

[6glargento]

Secondly, I believe in Christ’s real presence when we are gathered together in His Name for the Eucharist.

the True Church teaches that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

Ignatius of Antioch

“I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

" For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

**Cyril of Jerusalem
**

“The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ” (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

Does your church teach this?

There was no sacrament of Penance and confession of sins to any priests in the early church.

really? is that so?

The Didache

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . .** On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure**” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] …grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest(The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).

" . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).

we see that many in the early church believed in confession to a priest.

The early church did not teach that infants were to be water baptised.

o really?

Hippolytus

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, " (ibid., 64:5).

o yes this is sounding really protestant so far…

Queen of Heaven is not there.

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.” John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749).

“We today also remain near you, O Lady. Yes, I repeat, O Lady, Mother of God and Virgin. We bind our souls to your hope, as to a most firm and totally unbreakable anchor, consecrating to you mind, soul, body, and all our being and honoring you, as much as we can, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles.” **John of Damascene, Homily 1 on the Dormition, 14 (ante A.D. 749). **

might not use the phrase “Queen of Heaven”, but it is cose enough in my opinion

 

[Ignatius]

Because we believe Heaven has no Queen…only a King.
.

The queen in Hebrew kingly arrangments is always Tthe Kings mother.

 

[NotWorthy]

The queen in Hebrew kingly arrangments is always Tthe Kings mother.

After Christ gathered together the lost sheep of Israel to form the new Kingdom,

• and after the Holy Spirit inspired the authors of Chronicles and Kings to list nearly every queen mother in ancient Israel,
• and after Jeremiah was given a message by God to deliver to the King and his mother that they were to soon “lose their crowns”,
• and after we see a woman with a crown in the heavenly Jerusalem,

it’s amazing to me that others still deny there is a Queen of Heaven!!!

 

[Beyrak]

I was going to sit down, eat dinner and watch a ML baseball game. But after reading 6glargento’s post, I think I’ll go to ‘Adoration’ and pray ‘Our Lady’s Holy Rosary’.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Secondly, I believe in Christ’s real presence when we are gathered together in His Name for the Eucharist.

Well, that’s a nice sentiment. But apart from transubstantiation - HE IS NOT THERE.

I hope you’re not actually worshipping mere bread and grape juice - that would be idolatry.

To say you follow the faith of the early church necessitates that people will see if what you say you believe was taught by that same church.

True. And since sola scriptura and sola fide are not taught by the early Church, one has to wonder when and where you picked up these traditions.

Queen of Heaven is not there.

My previous post provided names of the Fathers who taught this.

You just have to read the text and refer to the footnotes.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Quote:
Secondly, I believe in Christ’s real presence when we are gathered together in His Name for the Eucharist.
the True Church teaches that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

Quote:

Ignatius of Antioch

“I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

" For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

**Cyril of Jerusalem
**

“The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ” (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

Does your church teach this?

Quote:
There was no sacrament of Penance and confession of sins to any priests in the early church.
really? is that so?

Quote:
The Didache

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . .** On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure**” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] …grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest(The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).

" . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).
we see that many in the early church believed in confession to a priest.

Quote:
The early church did not teach that infants were to be water baptised.
o really?
Quote:

Hippolytus

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, " (ibid., 64:5).

o yes this is sounding really protestant so far…

Quote:
Queen of Heaven is not there.

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.” John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749).

“We today also remain near you, O Lady. Yes, I repeat, O Lady, Mother of God and Virgin. We bind our souls to your hope, as to a most firm and totally unbreakable anchor, consecrating to you mind, soul, body, and all our being and honoring you, as much as we can, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles.” **John of Damascene, Homily 1 on the Dormition, 14 (ante A.D. 749). **

might not use the phrase “Queen of Heaven”, but it is cose enough in my opinion

Boo-yah! :dancing:

As for the “Queen of Heaven” quotes, see my post #140.

Atemi has ignored them twice.

 

[Atemi]

After Christ gathered together the lost sheep of Israel to form the new Kingdom,

• and after the Holy Spirit inspired the authors of Chronicles and Kings to list nearly every queen mother in ancient Israel,
• and after Jeremiah was given a message by God to deliver to the King and his mother that they were to soon “lose their crowns”,
• and after we see a woman with a crown in the heavenly Jerusalem,

it’s amazing to me that others still deny there is a Queen of Heaven!!!

Yes, I do find it amazing that you figured out something that the Apostles and the early church somehow never did.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I do find it amazing that you figured out something that the Apostles and the early church somehow never did.

As did the Sola Scripturerists? Sola Fideist? OSAS?

And yet, you still do not address the point…

 

[6glargento]

As did the Sola Scripturerists? Sola Fideist? OSAS?

And yet, you still do not address the point…

exactly!!! and i am bold enough to say that there is more scriptural evidence for mary as the qeen of heaven than there is for sola scriptura, sola fide and OSAS

 

[bankerdavid]

Because “queen of heaven” title places her Above Jesus, not on her knees in worship to him.

You give her godlike qualities, like Jesus can not say NO to her.

Only God the Father has authority over Jesus.

In short, you are giving us a poor image of her.

Actually, she is more like Queen Mother. In ancient tradition, the mother of the king was more of a queen than the wife of the king. The king sought out the advice of his mother and almost always took that advice, because she was the one person he knew he could trust.

Don’t get bogged down in analogies, as they are always imperfect.

Someone else said it and it bears repeating-the early fathers of the church took great care to keep Mary safe-by not talking about her, mostly.