Question about a sexual intimacy problem

[Rico_S]

That’s the part my husband does NOT get, or refuses to get. We basically don’t touch each other at all during a normal day, even on weekends when he’s around more. No rubs on the back, no hugs, no hand-holding. Nada. Nor does he compliment me or spend time with me.

It is a chicken/egg thing. If a husband constantly gets rejected, he probably doesn’t feel like hugging, handholding, complimenting, etc during the day. Seeing it solely form the “neglected wife’s” view is incomplete.

 

[The_Bucket]

Perhaps you can mention to your wife that she is contractually obligated to render earlier agreed upon “services” in a timely manner upon receiving a reasonable request from you. You have it right there in black and white, and she signed on the dotted line. It can’t be all that complicated to explain to her. Plus, talk about contracts, rights, and obligations makes women melt.

Very subtle indeed. Good thing you included that last line there to note the parody.

And BEL, I have to stick up for my wife on this point. She does not want me to stuff my feelings down my throat. Though I can understand why you’d say that because I didn’t explain everything. She wants me to be able to deal with them without having to pour everything out to her. I’m quite talkative and emotional. Even before we dated I thought I was too talkative and too emotional. I tend to say whatever’s on my mind and I don’t have a good filter. Couple that with a really keen ability to be passive aggressive and use my feelings as a weapon during arguments, it’s a potent and nasty cocktail. It’s not one that makes women feel safe.

That’s why I said that it’s much better if I talk about my feelings when we’re not in the middle of an argument or when I’m not feeling rejection or whatnot. That way she’s not worried that I’m trying to manipulate her, which I concede that I’ve done in the past. It was nasty, brutal and my general disposition was totally warped by my pornography addiction. I probably bordered on emotional abuse of her and probably my kids too. Makes me want to throw up having to write that, but it’s true.

So of course she wants me to be a rock now more than ever. Of course she doesn’t want the torrent of feelings of rejection coming out. Because in the past I’d manipulate her with that and if I didn’t get what I wanted (which wasn’t usually sex by the way) I’d dive back into my drug of choice, which was porn.

The picture I painted was certainly incomplete, but not because I was trying to hide anything on my end. I just didn’t want to detract from the thread topic. Suffice to say that my wife has plenty of reasons to want me to be a certain way and it goes beyond her simply being “old school.” The only time she feels safe is when I let God be in charge of my emotions and surrender my will entirely to Him. Or, if you care, I let my “Higher Power” take care of it, as they say in the 12-step programs.

My sobriety is pretty strong and it was not pervasive all throughout my marriage. But I was in it for two years and dealt with real bad anxiety for another year before resorting to my drug of choice. So it’s going to take some time before things are pretty well healed. She’s still going to be “old school” but I don’t think I’ll have to resort to such dramatic measures in the future. She doesn’t think so either. It’s just what works for now until the bridge rebuilding is complete.

 

[Thumblessprimat]

My experience is similar to that of the OP. Sometimes I get frustrated. What I’ve done is offer up my experience as mortification. On the other hand and this is a plus, is that it seems to make the love wife and I have for each other grow.

Our love seems to always be fresh and pure just as it were when we were dating. I have to work harder to win her affection. I have to do the dishes, clean house, fix stuff, fix up the garden, give her a massage, cook, buy her some pretty clothes or something she’s been wanting, etc. Keeps me busy and seems to be therapeutic at the same time. All these things make her happy and help her out; at some point I’ll win her physical expression of love, and at time it’ll be very special.

 

[fpt]

By the vows of marriage, each one gives itself to the other: the mutual and reciprocal donation of persons, thus of bodies. Otherwise, it is not a marriage and it is the concept of pornea.

The pornea means a possible declaration of nullity, if at the moment of marriage there is no conjugal will (see canon law and the case law of Holy Rota), or also means immoral acts, by the refusal of marital debt, during the conjugal life.

There are the natural moral rules. They are like that for protecting the contract, the institution and rights of each member of couple.
**
The natural moral rules of marriage are not negotiable.** The day of wedding, the bride and the bridegroom have to know the rules with the effects**. Their wills, their intellects, their consciences have to be, and to be totally free.**

The moral obligation, the moral duty and the moral right of marital act is in favor of conjugal love, of conjugal charity, of conjugal chastity, of holiness of marriage. The catholic paradigm is relevant, is powerful and is good.

If you are not okay with that , the marriage is not for you, or a possible nullity, or a sinful road.** I am direct, but it is like that.**

I am a french Lawyer who loves natural moral law of marriage. Sorry for the radical feminism!!! and the other ideologies and heresies. The hard core of marriage is like that.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Please explain to me why you are not Catholic?
Your sense of personal responsibility and your willingness to embrace duties/obligations that go along with promises you make you a person of rare virtue in today’s world.
I agree with everything you posted here. In fact, other than theological debates, I tend to appreciate your perspective here at CAF.
I hope you don’t mind if I hope and pray that you will become Catholic one day?
The Church needs good people who intend to follow through on their promises.

I don’t think that the Catholic church is looking for members who don’t believe in god

I think I got my sense of duty, responsibility and loyalty from my older brother. He’s a very strong man who always taught me that you stand by the people you love and that when you make a commitment, especially marriage, you throw yourself in to it. I have always looked up to him and the way he always treated the women he was with was amazing. Even when he was a meth dealer/addict he always made sure to treat his woman like gold. Unfortunately they often hurt him, but now he’s clean, with a wonderful woman, and has 6 kids.

I never get offended when people say that they will pray for me. Its a caring gesture, getting huffy and offended would be mean, wrong, and hurtful.

And I don’t think its just the church, I think this world needs more people who follow through on their promises.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Very subtle indeed. Good thing you included that last line there to note the parody.

It is blunt, but I meant it. I am coming from the side of the less of the less than eager spouse and I find it very helpful. I don’t have to decide if I want sex or not; it is simply something I have to do. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is the same as you would view going to work. If I only had to go to work when I wanted to, I would hardly ever go. But because I have no choice, I am able to go and get work done.

It is good in a way, because decisions can be exhausting. “Am I in the mood, or am I not in the mood? oh wait, it really doesn’t matter.” you see, one less thing to worry about.

Besides all that, refusing your spouse is a grave matter, and potentially a mortal sin. I know I would want to know if I were potentially committing a mortal sin.

 

[GangGreen]

To quote St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 7:

Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency. But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that.

It’s a great passage and can’t be more true. If either spouse holds out on one other it can lead to many sins. Pornography, masturbation, adultery… In marriage it must go both ways. Of course we can’t always constantly have sex with our spouses, but a spouse must be sensitive to their husband/wife’s sex drive. To have it so that the one with the high sex drive must always sacrifice for the one with the low sex drive is foolish and selfish. Just as the one with the high sex drive must have discipline and self control when the one with the lower sex drive isn’t in the mood.

However, one can only have so much discipline and self control. One could even say that if one spouse isn’t living up to their end of the bargain then once the higher sex drive spouse starts committing sexual sins, they have a hand in it.

 

[mommamaree]

It is blunt, but I meant it. I am coming from the side of the less of the less than eager spouse and I find it very helpful. I don’t have to decide if I want sex or not; it is simply something I have to do. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is the same as you would view going to work. If I only had to go to work when I wanted to, I would hardly ever go. But because I have no choice, I am able to go and get work done.

It is good in a way, because decisions can be exhausting. **“Am I in the mood, or am I not in the mood? oh wait, it really doesn’t matter.” you see, one less thing to worry about. **

Besides all that, refusing your spouse is a grave matter, and potentially a mortal sin. I know I would want to know if I were potentially committing a mortal sin.

To the bolded blue statement (my emphasis):
This works very well for me in another area of life. The obligation to attend mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation. My non-Catholic and non-Christian family members think it is silly how hard my husband and I have to work to attend mass during one of their visits from out-of-town, or when we go back home to visit them. For instance, this past weekend was my son’s birthday and we had two days where mass attendance was obligatory. My FIL (a non-Christian) overheard us having several logistical conversations, and he laughed and made jokes about it, all in good fun, of course, but he really doesn’t get the whole obedience thing. Now that particular weekend, I had already been excused from mass obligation due to being on bed rest, and my husband had to use the excuse of missing mass due to care of young children, because I was in too much pain by Sunday evening for him to leave the kids with me and get to the last mass offered. But on Saturday morning, my FIL came over early so that my husband and I were both free to go to the early mass for the holy day. So even though I was excused by my priest, I just took along a pillow and hobbled into church and just enjoyed the respite and the peace of the quiet morning mass. But I would have totally skipped out on both days if I had no sense of obligation whatsoever.

It is very similar with respect to marital intimacy. I have always felt a strong sense of obligation to give myself to my husband, even when I was a professed pagan. Even times when he abused that privilege in our relationship, I still kept giving. And the Lord has greatly blessed our marriage as a result. My husband gets the logic and the beauty of the Catholic teachings on marital sexuality. And it restored a balance and a joy to that aspect of our relationship.

The mortal sin possibility was a new one for me to consider, after already having become a Catholic. My husband and I talked about that one a lot. He and I are in agreement that asking for a postponement of a day or so, due to illness or exhaustion is not the same as refusing one’s spouse. So he doesn’t ask me when I am sick. I ask him during times of stress if he wants to or not, and sometimes he says he is too stressed or tired and that quiet time together would be better then. If either of us is too tired, we either try anyway, or we take a raincheck for the next night. But we always talk about it. If I am getting caught up in my own mind games (coming from an improper upbringing with regards to sex), I am totally upfront, so he can set me straight. If he is experiencing spiritual struggles connected to sexuality, he tells me. And I made him promise never to keep it to himself if he is getting tempted to sin because a time of abstinence is too overwhelming.

Sexual relations is meant to be a source of joy for a married couple. Too often in today’s world it becomes a source of discord and pain. It is no longer simple and straightforward, what with our contraceptive culture, and the prevalence of “Sex Sells” and rampant pornography and overly busy lives. I hope that couples can rediscover the joys of the holy marriage bed and block out all the sinful/warped perspectives of the world.

 

[fpt]

In catholic marriage, a mortification of the flesh, that is decided unilaterally, does not have to have bad effects on the conjugal sexual life. Otherwise, the spouse has to stop this mortification of the flesh. A unilateral personal mortification without exterior effects for the other spouse **seems very improbable, in the real life. **Thus, that seems not to be good.

THE UNILATERAL MORTIFICATION** WITH EXTERIOR EFFECTS ON THE CONJUGAL SEX IS NOT MORAL: IT IS A FALSE DEVOTION, IT IS VERY WRONG.**

ONLY, THE BILATERAL MORTIFICATION IS MORALLY OKAY, but when one of spouses wants to stop, the other has to stop too. **The fact of stopping this bilateral mortification of flesh is not sinful, even when only one of spouse wants to stop it. **The principle is the marital act, because it is a debt, an obligation, a duty, a right. You have rights on the body of the other.

I am happy to be catholic. CATHOLIC LOGIC IS SO POWERFUL.

 

[hurting]

Perhaps you can mention to your wife that she is contractually obligated to render earlier agreed upon “services” in a timely manner upon receiving a reasonable request from you. You have it right there in black and white, and she signed on the dotted line. It can’t be all that complicated to explain to her. Plus, talk about contracts, rights, and obligations makes women melt.

Why should people not be informed of their obligations?

 

[Falco]

I love this and I completely agree.

The only thing I don’t get is, how can the wife be the teacher and schoolgirl at the same time in a marriage?

“It’s a very ancient saying, but a true and honest thought,
That if you become a teacher, by your pupils you’ll be taught”
(Anna in The King and I)

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It is a chicken/egg thing. If a husband constantly gets rejected, he probably doesn’t feel like hugging, handholding, complimenting, etc during the day. Seeing it solely form the “neglected wife’s” view is incomplete.

Well, in our case, even when we were better matched sexually, there was still no physical contact except sexual.



Sorry but that’s the raw truth.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Why should people not be informed of their obligations?

People need to be informed of their obligations but things can still be a struggle. When my wife and I were struggling with and I informed her that she couldn’t just say no forever, she would claim I was saying “put out or get out”. On the other hand, what I was hearing from her was “you’ll get nothing, take it or leave it”. How we broke the stalemate without getting divorced is beyond me. One of the problems is that things happened to her growing up that make intimacy difficult for her. We have moved from horrible to merely pathetic, but I do see her trying which makes me less bitter, usually.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

There’s also a difference between being a 14-year-old boy with nothing but time on your hands and some porn lying around and being an adult. Of course, it also helps if what’s really a matter of immaturity as a teen doesn’t become an addiction as a young adult and into later life.

I’m only sixteen, so I’m still pretty much a teen with nothing but time on my hands. My hormones are just as strong if not stronger right now, so if anything it should be harder for me to stay pure. But I understand what you are saying.

 

[hurting]

People need to be informed of their obligations but things can still be a struggle. When my wife and I were struggling with and I informed her that she couldn’t just say no forever, she would claim I was saying “put out or get out”. On the other hand, what I was hearing from her was “you’ll get nothing, take it or leave it”. How we broke the stalemate without getting divorced is beyond me. One of the problems is that things happened to her growing up that make intimacy difficult for her. We have moved from horrible to merely pathetic, but I do see her trying which makes me less bitter, usually.

I truly feel for you. This was a huge problem in my marriage. I make the point from the view that few people would hesitate for a minute to chastise a spouse, particularly a man, for failing to live up to his end of the marital bargain in terms of say, earning a living to support his family. Yet the obligation between spouses regarding the marital embrace is much more explicit in the Church’s teaching and as others have pointed out, much more important in terms of the hazards it avoids.

I have heard every excuse under the sun, and frankly, they are usually offered on behalf of women who don’t want to honor their obligations. They are just that - excuses. While a man owes his wife respect and honor, he in fact does not owe her even one date night or any of the other feminist tripe offered up to earn something that his wife promised him on their wedding day. The Church uses the terms ‘debt’ and ‘obligation’ for a reason. The OP deserves the support of his pastor to counsel his wife that she is sinning is a bad way by withholding the marital embrace from him.

He can buy her all the flowers and rub her feet till the cows come home, but what it all boils down to is that his wife will either decide to honor her vows or not.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I truly feel for you. This was a huge problem in my marriage. I make the point from the view that few people would hesitate for a minute to chastise a spouse, particularly a man, for failing to live up to his end of the marital bargain in terms of say, earning a living to support his family. Yet the obligation between spouses regarding the marital embrace is much more explicit in the Church’s teaching and as others have pointed out, much more important in terms of the hazards it avoids.

I have heard every excuse under the sun, and frankly, they are usually offered on behalf of women who don’t want to honor their obligations. They are just that - excuses. While a man owes his wife respect and honor, he in fact does not owe her even one date night or any of the other feminist tripe offered up to earn something that his wife promised him on their wedding day. The Church uses the terms ‘debt’ and ‘obligation’ for a reason. The OP deserves the support of his pastor to counsel his wife that she is sinning is a bad way by withholding the marital embrace from him.

He can buy her all the flowers and rub her feet till the cows come home, but what it all boils down to is that his wife will either decide to honor her vows or not.

Framed like this, I can’t imagine why more Catholic marriages don’t have stinky sex lives.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Framed like this, I can’t imagine why more Catholic marriages don’t have stinky sex lives.

Yeah, I can see why it was a huge problem in his marriage. Wow.

 

[Falco]

Have you read The Five Love Languages? www.5lovelanguages.com/

I found this book to be extremely helpful in my relationships - it looks at our needs when it comes to expressing love.

Touch, Gifts, Affirmation, Acts of Service, Quality Time.

So, if your wife’s love language is Quality Time, but yours is Acts of Service, she is sitting on the sofa waiting for half an hour of your undivided attention, while you rush round putting the kids to bed, putting out the trash, mopping the kitchen floor, etc. Then at the end of it you get a cold shoulder - she thinks you’ll do anything rather than just sit and listen to her, and you think she is an ungrateful woman after all you’ve done for her. Once you know each other’s Languages, you’ll know the Act of Service she most needs is that Quality Time handhold on the couch while she tells you what is on her mind, and she’ll know that what you will like best, as an Acts of Service type, is that she finally got round to sewing the buttons back on your favourite flannel shirt, then one she doesn’t like you to wear.

There are tests online to determine which is your Love Language - you may have more than one - mine is Touch/Affirmation, with Gifts right at the bottom with hardly a mention.

I am blessed to be matched with a man with the exact same Languages as mine.

There is also The Five Love Languages of God, and one for children too - I haven’t read those.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I want to take the time to thank all those who replied. I cannot believe how many replies there are.

I will begin responding to some of them soon, thanks so much.

 

[hsmomforlife]

Oh come on now. It’s an anniversary. Like you said h(name removed by moderator), you’re supposed to “get some” as you put it. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t put in some serious effort anyway!

It’s the ‘supposed to get some on an anniversary’ mindset that is what I was speaking to…just because it’s your anniversary, you expect that your efforts will result in your wife wanting to have sex. I’m not saying you shouldn’t put in some serious effort…but rather to me that the effort (not to that extent obviously) should be every other day of the year and when it only happens on the days when someone expects to ‘get some’…it cheapens it all and can be a real turn off.

Incidentally, she was not feeling well by the end of the night so actually, there was no “some” when we went to bed in that nice B&B. Yeah I was mildly disappointed, but I mean, that’s life!

That’s my point exactly…all your hard work didn’t end up in the way that you hoped/wanted/expected and the day together wasn’t enough…it was supposed to culminate in a sex, simply because it was your anniversary and when it didn’t you were disappointed. Although, I do have to say that you seem to have handled it well

Oh and I’m glad you both felt better in the morning