Question About Baptist Belief

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Hmmm…interesting. I can’t say that’s consistent with any of the preaching in the churches around here. Thanks for the info.

 

[dronald]

Jesus also was baptized because the Messiah was expected to be anointed by a Prophet in the same way that David was by Samuel. Therefore Jesus “fulfilled all righteousness” with His baptism.

However, immediately after Jesus was given His true Baptism by the Holy Spirit. It’s really quite amazing.

 

[dronald]

Also, to the OP:

I find the idea of infant Baptism a little bit hard to grasp myself. The thought that an unborn child or an unbaptized baby, through no fault of their own may not be able to attain Heaven just for not being Baptized is ridiculous; Biblically and plain logically.

I’ve discussed this at length here. Essentially the Catholics here want to believe that unbaptized babies go to Heaven, but they don’t want to say certainly. However they’ll never look a premie’s mom in the eye and tell her that her baby won’t make it unless Baptized.

I think the answer being “We don’t know” to the question “Do unbaptized babies go to Heaven?” Is not enough. The CC should know. And they should know that they do. I believe that deep down, all Catholics know that unbaptized babies will go to Heaven and Baptism won’t change whether or not they do.

 

[zz912]

Also, to the OP:

I find the idea of infant Baptism a little bit hard to grasp myself.

Do you also find the idea of 8-day old babies being entered into the Old Covenant hard to grasp? Why is the New Covenant more restrictive and rejecting of infants than the Old?

The thought that an unborn child or an unbaptized baby, through no fault of their own may not be able to attain Heaven just for not being Baptized is ridiculous; Biblically and plain logically.

Jesus says that we must be baptized, and Peter says baptism saves us. So the Church doesn’t go beyond His teaching. God may or may not bring unbaptized babies into Heaven. He may or may not have a perfect place of natural rest (but not supernatural, i.e. heaven, the Beatific Vision) for them to reside in. But God hasn’t revealed this to mankind, so we cannot state it as truth.

Attempting to do so is presumptuous upon God’s authority to decide.

I’ve discussed this at length here. Essentially the Catholics here want to believe that unbaptized babies go to Heaven, but they don’t want to say certainly. However they’ll never look a premie’s mom in the eye and tell her that her baby won’t make it unless Baptized.

Of course a Catholic would never state an unbaptized baby WON’T go to Heaven, as this has never been revealed by God or proclaimed by the Church as dogma. We can tell her that we trust in God’s mercy and love, and that the baby is without personal sin, so he/she cannot be in hell.

I think the answer being “We don’t know” to the question “Do unbaptized babies go to Heaven?” Is not enough. The CC should know.

The Church can only “know” what God has revealed. Pretending we know what God has not revealed is arrogant and presumptuous.

And they should know that they do. I believe that deep down, all Catholics know that unbaptized babies will go to Heaven and Baptism won’t change whether or not they do.

I honestly don’t know, and I’m Catholic. I know that they won’t be punished, and if God does not admit them into the Beatific Vision, He will then have a place of perfect rest and peace prepared for them. And if that is His will, then it is perfectly just and merciful.

Has it ever occurred to you that God intentionally hasn’t revealed this truth to us? Maybe He wants to reserve this decision to Himself, and at the same time give us heavy incentive to get our babies baptized.

 

[zz912]

Hmmm…interesting. I can’t say that’s consistent with any of the preaching in the churches around here. Thanks for the info.

It really depends on the Baptist church and pastor. There are some that believe in original sin, similar to Catholic understanding, some that view it as noted above, and some who deny it. There are general tendencies of beliefs in Baptist churches, but there is variation among specific churches. There is no single set of beliefs and doctrines for Baptist churches.

Some Baptists even belief in double predestination, so that those who will be saved have no choice in the matter and can do nothing to lose that salvation.

 

[zz912]

I do know that some protestants believe baptism is not necessary and some believe you just do it as an outward showing of the change on the inside.

Peter teaches explicitly that “baptism now saves you”, and Jesus teaches that one must be baptized to be saved.

Those beliefs you noted seem to contradict those passages.

 

[zz912]

Thanks for the answers. And I have one more, lol. Do catholics get baptised twice, once as an infant and once as an adult?

There’s only one baptism, just as there is only one circumcision. You can only enter a covenant once. You can only be made a member of the family once.

 

[dronald]

Do you also find the idea of 8-day old babies being entered into the Old Covenant hard to grasp? Why is the New Covenant more restrictive and rejecting of infants than the Old?

Doesn’t Paul see circumcision entirely as symbolic and originating by the faith Abraham had?

Jesus says that we must be baptized, and Peter says baptism saves us. So the Church doesn’t go beyond His teaching. God may or may not bring unbaptized babies into Heaven. He may or may not have a perfect place of natural rest (but not supernatural, i.e. heaven, the Beatific Vision) for them to reside in. But God hasn’t revealed this to mankind, so we cannot state it as truth.

Attempting to do so is presumptuous upon God’s authority to decide.

How does baptism now save us exactly? Please explain citing chapter and verse in its entirety.

Of course a Catholic would never state an unbaptized baby WON’T go to Heaven, as this has never been revealed by God or proclaimed by the Church as dogma. We can tell her that we trust in God’s mercy and love, and that the baby is without personal sin, so he/she cannot be in hell.

So it’s official that an unbaptized baby cannot go to Hell? This is official in the CC?

The Church can only “know” what God has revealed. Pretending we know what God has not revealed is arrogant and presumptuous.

Scripturally it’s clear imo.

I honestly don’t know, and I’m Catholic. I know that they won’t be punished, and if God does not admit them into the Beatific Vision, He will then have a place of perfect rest and peace prepared for them. And if that is His will, then it is perfectly just and merciful.

How do you know this? Was this also revealed to the Church? When?

Has it ever occurred to you that God intentionally hasn’t revealed this truth to us? Maybe He wants to reserve this decision to Himself, and at the same time give us heavy incentive to get our babies baptized.

I don’t think that’s a reason, because not all babies are born and die in Christian families. I don’t see how an unbaptized baby in Saudi Arabia who dies doesn’t go where a baptized baby in Italy who dies goes.

 

[zz912]

Doesn’t Paul see circumcision entirely as symbolic and originating by the faith Abraham had?

If that’s true, then why did he have Timothy circumcised?

Paul was teaching that merely a physical action (circumcision) without the spiritual change and behavioral change, is worthless. Just as our baptism, which truly makes us part of the New Covenant, is worthless if we sully it and disobey God and reject Him.

So no, Paul most certainly did NOT see it as entirely symbolic.

 

[zz912]

So it’s official that an unbaptized baby cannot go to Hell? This is official in the CC?

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this,** a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end**. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619

 

[zz912]

How does baptism now save us exactly? Please explain citing chapter and verse in its entirety.

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. **It saves you **by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

 

[zz912]

Scripturally it’s clear imo.

So clear that Christian thinkers have been discussing it back and forth for 2000 years without a definitive resolution. Why don’t you lay it all out for the rest of us.

How do you know this? Was this also revealed to the Church? When?

As noted in my prior post, only those who have committed unrepentant mortal sin are punished in hell. So if unbaptized babies are not admitted into Heaven, then they have to go to a place where there is no punishment.

I don’t think that’s a reason, because not all babies are born and die in Christian families. I don’t see how an unbaptized baby in Saudi Arabia who dies doesn’t go where a baptized baby in Italy who dies goes.

Jesus promised the ultimate fate of a baptized person with no mortal sin. He has not revealed the final destination of unbaptized babies. No amount of our personal opinion will change that, as much as we may want it.

 

[Razumihin1866]

So why did jesus get baptized of he wasn’t born with original sin?

Here is what Benedict XVI had to say about that: “Looking at the events in light of the Cross and Resurrection, the Christian people realized what happened: Jesus loaded the burden of all mankind’s guilt upon his shoulders; he bore it down into the depths of the Jordan. He inaugurated his public activity by stepping into the place of sinners. His inaugural gesture is an anticipation of the Cross. He is, as it were, the true Jonah who said to the crew of the ship, “Take me and throw me into the sea” (Jon 1:12). The whole significance of Jesus’ Baptism, the fact that he bears, “all righteousness,” first comes to light on the Cross: The Baptism is an acceptance of death for the sins of humanity, and the voice that calls out “This is my beloved Son” over the baptismal waters is an anticipatory reference to the Resurrection. This also explains why, in his own discourses, Jesus uses the word baptism to refer to his death (cf. Mk 10:38; Lk 12:50)” – Benedict XVI, “Jesus of Nazareth”.

 

[Simca]

So why did jesus get baptized of he wasn’t born with original sin?

I’ve had an interesting thought on this.

You’re right, in that Jesus wasn’t born with original sin, but neither did he have a conversion experience, since He himself is God.

I think a lot of it has to do with fulfilling the Day of Atonement service in Judaism.
Before the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies to begin the atonement process, he had to be fully immersed in water. Jesus came to be our final High Priest, so before he began his ministry of making atonement for us, he was baptized, just as the High Priest was.
It was, in a sense, “to fulfill all righteousness”, as Jesus said.

 

[St_Pancake]

I was raised a Baptist. Baptists believe in original sin. Everyone is born with original sin and is condemned to hell because of it. However, mentally challenged individuals and young children who have not reached the age of accountability will not be sent to hell because of original sin.

Baptists believe that baptism is only an outward sign and is not absolutely necessary for salvation. They also believe that baptism should only occur after one has made a decision to follow Jesus as their personal savior. (No infants) They practice baby dedications, where the parents pledge to raise the child in a Christian home and teach them Christian values.

These beliefs on original sin and baptism are also held by Evangelicals too btw

Maybe that’s how they believe where you live but I’ve never seen it and I was a Baptist for 50+ years before I converted.

Baptists do believe in original sin. The Baptist Faith and Message (the confession of faith of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Baptist denomination in the world) states the following:

Quote:
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God’s creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.
Older Baptist confessions express this same idea. Note this passage from the 1833 New Hampshire Confession of Faith:

Quote:
Of the Fall of Man We believe that man was created in holiness, under the law of his Maker (13); but by voluntary transgression fell from that holy and happy state (14); in consequence of which all mankind are now sinners (15), not by constraint, but choice (16); being by nature utterly void of that holiness required by the law of God, positively inclined to evil; and therefore under just condemnation to eternal ruin (17), without defense or excuse (18).

---

:

This still doesn’t match the belief, at least how I understand it, of original sin according to the Catholic Church. Original sin that is a stain in us from conception. If it wasn’t so, then the BVM would have no need of an immaculate conception.

It really depends on the Baptist church and pastor. There are some that believe in original sin, similar to Catholic understanding, some that view it as noted above, and some who deny it. There are general tendencies of beliefs in Baptist churches, but there is variation among specific churches. There is no single set of beliefs and doctrines for Baptist churches.

Some Baptists even belief in double predestination, so that those who will be saved have no choice in the matter and can do nothing to lose that salvation.

Each Baptist Church is completely autonomous. With a change of pastor, I’ve seen doctrine change substantially.

I’ve been in Baptist Churches where they considered Baptism just an unnecessary symbol and I’ve been in Baptist Churches where they would Baptize the day that someone accepted Jesus because they thought it necessary to do it right away.

 

[ltwin]

This still doesn’t match the belief, at least how I understand it, of original sin according to the Catholic Church. Original sin that is a stain in us from conception. If it wasn’t so, then the BVM would have no need of an immaculate conception.

I don’t claim that Baptist and Catholic views on original sin “match” 100%. I’m just pointing out that the assertion that Baptists don’t believe in original sin is dubious. The vast majority of Baptists have and continue to believe that man, by nature, is a sinner due to the voluntary transgression of Adam.

In Baptist theology, as in most other Protestant traditions, original sin is the basis for total depravity–the belief that man is incapable of saving himself nor in participating in his salvation through good works.

Yes, Baptist congregations are autonomous but most of them haven’t gotten so creative as to jettison original sin and total depravity.

 

[St_Pancake]

I don’t claim that Baptist and Catholic views on original sin “match” 100%. I’m just pointing out that the assertion that Baptists don’t believe in original sin is dubious. The vast majority of Baptists have and continue to believe that man, by nature, is a sinner due to the voluntary transgression of Adam.

In Baptist theology, as in most other Protestant traditions, original sin is the basis for total depravity–the belief that man is incapable of saving himself nor in participating in his salvation through good works.

Yes, Baptist congregations are autonomous but most of them haven’t gotten so creative as to jettison original sin and total depravity.

I agree with most of what you say but when a question is asked by a Catholic regarding original sin, I assume the Catholic definition. What you describe is the fall of man.

 

[ltwin]

I agree with most of what you say but when a question is asked by a Catholic regarding original sin, I assume the Catholic definition. What you describe is the fall of man.

The quoted statement says that “Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin.” Because of Adam’s fall, all men and women are born into an environment and with a nature inclined toward sin, so yes, Southern Baptists do believe that the effects of original sin are with us from conception because we “inherit” it from our parents.

 

[St_Pancake]

P.S. The quoted statement says that “Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin.” Because of Adam’s fall, all men and women are born into an environment and with a nature inclined toward sin, so yes, Southern Baptists do believe that the effects of original sin are with us from conception because we “inherit” it from our parents.

PSS. That still isn’t original sin.

 

[ltwin]

PSS. That still isn’t original sin.

You’re going to have to explain this to me. The Catholic Catechism 404 states:

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

How is this substantially different from what the BF&M presents?

In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation.