Question about BoM on Original Sin

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know why it is so difficult to comprehend that obedience to God’s commandment is the right approach to the events in the Garden. Along with an understanding that following God is rewarding, rather than believing that doing so creates a situation that is not conducive to one’s own happiness.

 

[ParkerD]

what a crock…Adam should have told Eve “I will not eat the fruit.” Then when God showed up (even though He was already there watching) Adam could tell God what happened, ask God for the wisdom of what to do and follow God’s next instructions. I don’t buy the trickery approach that God commanded them not to eat the fruit but really wanted them to.

Majick,
So I take it that you think God wants to make every decision for humankind, if we’ll just let Him?

I take it that you don’t buy the approach that God really did want them to make a choice by themselves, and learn from choosing?

I take it that you think whenever anyone does anything that is not precisely in perfect keeping of the commandments, they are saying they don’t love God by doing such a thing, and God is very displeased? And if they would just listen to God and obey, God would never let them do anything wrong at all because He would be making all their choices for them and thus they would be perfectly happy and never have one tiny problem or difficulty to face?

 

[RebeccaJ]

1 John 1

5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. 10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Scott,
OK, so let me get this straight. I take it that if God had put you there in the garden of Eden instead of Adam, you would have watched Eve’s every move, not let her eat the forbidden fruit even though God was watching and was letting her do it and wasn’t saying to her “Don’t do it, don’t do it!” And if she did it anyway, you’d have asked God “now what do I do–I’m supposed to stay with her but she blew it?” Then if God said, “Scott, you’ll just have to choose. Do you love me, or do you love her?” Or would you think He would say, “Let’s start over. I’ll take another rib out of you and make another woman for you, and we’ll see what she does.” Or would He have said, “What God hath joined together, let not man (even you) put asunder. You know what you should do, Scott. I gave her to you for a help meet, not a hindrance. I happen to have a plan you don’t know about yet, but you’ll soon learn about it, and it’s wonderful.”

Enjoy thinking about this, and have a good day. It’s absolutely gorgeous in my area today. What a lovely and beautiful world this is!

Parker

It is a wonderful day here as well.

I Do not know what choice I would have made if it had been me instead of Adam. Nor Do I know what God would have Done if after Eve had eaten Adam had said no and not eaten the fruit. I do KNOW form every thing that is written in Scripture and brought through the Church that God wants us to Obey him and does not set us up to fail.

That there fore tells me that God did not want the fall. He did not wish for it. And that Adam sin was disobedience. That if he had not eaten even after Eve had the fall would not have happened.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=ParkerD;5264533]Majick,
So I take it that you think God wants to make every decision for humankind, if we’ll just let Him?

Of course not.

I take it that you don’t buy the approach that God really did want them to make a choice by themselves, and learn from choosing?

He wants us to choose to Obey Him.

I take it that you think whenever anyone does anything that is not precisely in perfect keeping of the commandments, they are saying they don’t love God by doing such a thing, and God is very displeased? And if they would just listen to God and obey, God would never let them do anything wrong at all because He would be making all their choices for them and thus they would be perfectly happy and never have one tiny problem or difficulty to face?

Yes every time you sin it is saying I do not love you Lord I prefer thing my way not yours.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

and of course this was all part of Jesus’ plan at the Council of Gods in the pre-existence.

this is nothing more the LDS mythology and there is no council of gods as there is only one God.

 

[ParkerD]

1 John 1

5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. 10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Rebecca,
Thanks! This is so true! Amen to this wonderful passage and to all Biblical teachings.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker

It is a wonderful day here as well.

I Do not know what choice I would have made if it had been me instead of Adam. Nor Do I know what God would have Done if after Eve had eaten Adam had said no and not eaten the fruit. I do KNOW form every thing that is written in Scripture and brought through the Church that God wants us to Obey him and does not set us up to fail.

That there fore tells me that God did not want the fall. He did not wish for it. And that Adam sin was disobedience. That if he had not eaten even after Eve had the fall would not have happened.

Scott,
This life is not “set up to fail.” Adam and Eve were not “set up to fail.”

Thanks for being honest about the uncertainty of Adam’s situation, and what you would have done if it had been you instead of Adam. I really appreciate your sincerity and honesty and candidness. Have a great evening.

(Note that Adam’s fall would not have happened, but Eve’s fall would have. Then they would be apart, not together–no children, no “help meet” situation.)

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Scott,

(Note that Adam’s fall would not have happened, but Eve’s fall would have. Then they would be apart, not together–no children, no “help meet” situation.)

We can not know that as we do not know what God would have done. Yes Eve had sinned, but could she have been redeemed by Adams obedience? maybe something I will have to ask about if I by Gods grace am iN heaven to do so.

 

[Finrock]

Hello Religio71! I hope you are enjoying your weekend.

and of course this was all part of Jesus’ plan at the Council of Gods in the pre-existence.

I just wanted to make a slight correction here that the LDS church teaches that in the pre-existence council where we were all present, we were presented with Heavenly Father’s plan and not Jesus’ plan. Its actually a pretty common misunderstanding even among a few LDS folks.

But, you are correct in that the LDS believe we existed as spirits prior to this earth life and Heavenly Father explained His plan to us. Even here its actually called the Council in Heaven, which reflects LDS doctrine on this point more than calling it the “Council of Gods” does. But, I understand. I actually brought this up a few pages ago. It is a relevant piece of information if you are wanting to understand the LDS perspective. Thanks for bringing it up.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hello Religio71! I hope you are enjoying your weekend.

I just wanted to make a slight correction here that the LDS church teaches that in the pre-existence council where we were all present, we were presented with Heavenly Father’s plan and not Jesus’ plan. Its actually a pretty common misunderstanding even among a few LDS folks.

But, you are correct in that the LDS believe we existed as spirits prior to this earth life and Heavenly Father explained His plan to us. Even here its actually called the Council in Heaven, which reflects LDS doctrine on this point more than calling it the “Council of Gods” does. But, I understand. I actually brought this up a few pages ago. It is a relevant piece of information if you are wanting to understand the LDS perspective. Thanks for bringing it up.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

And again it can not be true as for it to be true there would have to be many gods and as there is but one God and man had not been yet created no Council in heaven of council of gods or what ever you wish to call it.

 

[Finrock]

Hello oneGODoneCHURCH! It’s nice to meet you.

And again it can not be true as for it to be true there would have to be many gods and as there is but one God and man had not been yet created no Council in heaven of council of gods or what ever you wish to call it.

Please understand that I’m not under any impression that Catholics agree with the Council in Heaven, but I do respect your beliefs and am more than willing to allow you to believe as you wish. As for me, I’m satisfied with my testimony and knowledge of the truth in this matter. To me it is a glorious truth that I am very happy to have a testimony of! Nonetheless, my intent was only to correct the slight misinformation that Religio71 posted as LDS doctrine.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Religio71]

yes my mistake Finrock. The Plan of Salvation originated with God the Father, and Jesus Christ supported it. Satan formed another plan where free agency was taken away and all people were saved, and Satan would receive all the glory.

So, God the Father’s Plan of Salvation necessitated the Fall, as more explicitly stated in the Book of Mormon. 2 Nephi 2:

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

 

[majick275]

Majick,
So I take it that you think God wants to make every decision for humankind, if we’ll just let Him?

I take it that you don’t buy the approach that God really did want them to make a choice by themselves, and learn from choosing?

I take it that you think whenever anyone does anything that is not precisely in perfect keeping of the commandments, they are saying they don’t love God by doing such a thing, and God is very displeased? And if they would just listen to God and obey, God would never let them do anything wrong at all because He would be making all their choices for them and thus they would be perfectly happy and never have one tiny problem or difficulty to face?

no but i do believe that when he issues COMMANDMENTS he expects them to be obeyed. they are not “suggestions”. they certainly aren’t tricks intended to be disobeyed for a greater good. i also think that the missionary scripture from the JS story is correct. and since we all agree that Adam lacked wisdom, he should have asked God. i think innocent people who obey God face all kinds of challenges and learn from them. are you advocating that we all sin mightily so that we can learn more?

 

[Arandur]

Scott,
OK, so let me get this straight. I take it that if God had put you there in the garden of Eden instead of Adam, you would have watched Eve’s every move, not let her eat the forbidden fruit even though God was watching and was letting her do it and wasn’t saying to her “Don’t do it, don’t do it!” And if she did it anyway, you’d have asked God “now what do I do–I’m supposed to stay with her but she blew it?” Then if God said, “Scott, you’ll just have to choose. Do you love me, or do you love her?” Or would you think He would say, “Let’s start over. I’ll take another rib out of you and make another woman for you, and we’ll see what she does.” Or would He have said, “What God hath joined together, let not man (even you) put asunder. You know what you should do, Scott. I gave her to you for a help meet, not a hindrance. I happen to have a plan you don’t know about yet, but you’ll soon learn about it, and it’s wonderful.”

Enjoy thinking about this, and have a good day. It’s absolutely gorgeous in my area today. What a lovely and beautiful world this is!

You seem to be looking for an explanation for why Adam would have done what he did. Scott Hahn has one far better supported by the text. Simple summary: the word used for “serpent” is the same in Hebrew as is used elsewhere in the Bible for “dragon” (Nahash, I believe it is in English). We also know this serpent was no legless snake until after God cursed him, so this is consistent. The serpent came to Eve with words “you shall not surely die” (if she ate of the fruit). In that she might or would live, but also carrying a veiled threat. Big scary dragon, little defenseless woman, sounds like intimidation. Would even Adam stand up to that threat? He should have. He should have chosen martyrdom in defense of his bride. But perhaps he just wasn’t so sure about that. In any case, dragon or not, Adam is supposed to be a protector and spiritual leader (Genesis is, after all, concerned somewhat with defining that husband-wife relationship and the roles thereof, so it makes sense that the sin would involve failure in those roles); he failed on both counts.

So that’s another possibility, supported by textual clues. I don’t see textual clues for Adam choosing to follow Eve into sin to stay close to her. And I see even less reason why he would necessarily have been separated from her had he not followed her into sin. Even if she would have been expelled from the garden (ignoring the spouse’s ability to sanctify their spouse), Adam could have willingly followed her without sinning. In your scenario, THAT would have been his proper response. Indeed, the Bible even says that you should love God more than any other person, so Adam following Eve rather than God would have been a mistake.

I believe the most common interpretation, however, is simply the sin of pride, which is still supported by the context and is not mutually exclusive from the draconic intimidation story, but rather complementary. This one focuses on the tree being a tree of knowledge and the desire for it being one to be like God–for what child does not want to be like their parents, or even to surpass them? Simple enough. Well supported. Consistent with the rest of the Bible–God’s commandments are always for our good, avoid pride, never disobey a commandment (added to the dragon story, be willing to be martyred rather than break a commandment, oppose temptation, protect your wife, lead your wife). Your version is not consistent and would run contrary to all other lessons in Scripture, for it would have us breaking commandments, following each other into sin, God playing games with us and giving commandments that He doesn’t expect or want us to follow.

 

[ParkerD]

no but i do believe that when he issues COMMANDMENTS he expects them to be obeyed. they are not “suggestions”. they certainly aren’t tricks intended to be disobeyed for a greater good. i also think that the missionary scripture from the JS story is correct. and since we all agree that Adam lacked wisdom, he should have asked God. i think innocent people who obey God face all kinds of challenges and learn from them. are you advocating that we all sin mightily so that we can learn more?

Majick,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that Adam lacked wisdom, but sometimes God leaves us on our own to figure out a “best choice under the circumstances.” Maybe Adam did ask God, and God may have kept silent because he wanted Adam to make a choice on his own. Don’t you think that might be possible?

I am saying that eating the forbidden fruit was not “sinning mightily.” It had a “mighty consequence”, but there are far worse sins than that one. And of course I don’t advocate “sinning mightily”, but I do advocate not expecting that oneself or anyone else has to be perfect at every moment. We should be progressing and repenting, yes–perfect, no.

I also think that to blame Adam or Eve for their choice in the garden of Eden and thus say to oneself, “if only this world were like the garden of Eden and I didn’t have to struggle or have pain and suffering or watch it in other people’s lives,” is not a helpful approach to life.

I’m sorry, but I also observe that predominantly Catholic countries don’t exactly have a “paradise found” or a society making marvelous progress when compared with other societies. Maybe if those people realized that this life has a fully intended good purpose, they would work harder, help each other more, and seek inspiration without blaming Adam for not having God’s presence in their life. Maybe then their culture would develop into “paradise found” with unsurpassed progress in caring for their poor, feeding their hungry, and raising children who would see that their potential with Christ’s good shepherding help in their lives, is absolutely marvelous.

 

[Religio71]

now would be a good time to read Pope Benedict’s In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of Creation and the Fall. Adding that to the list

 

[ParkerD]

Arandur,
I have read your latest post, and appreciate the additional insight you shared. It has logic that makes sense to you. I just don’t buy into it. I’ve already written about “pride” and don’t want to rehash that. But I can see that your logic is supportable by your reading and how you interpret that part of the text that you choose to highlight, and I appreciate that clarification about where you were coming from with your comments.

I think God tricked the serpent more than He “tricked” Adam and Eve. (I don’t really think they were tricked at all, but the serpent–different story. He thought he was spoiling the plan.) I think he was actually helping the plan, and God used the deception of the serpent to lead to what will eventually conquer the serpent. Christ, with all of our help, will win out. But Christ needed and still needs strong warriors, skilled in spiritual warfare, to do battle in so many ways with the real adversary. The real adversary deploys spiritual wickedness as he seeks to destroy God’s plan.

 

[Religio71]

Majick,

I’m sorry, but I also observe that predominantly Catholic countries don’t exactly have a “paradise found” or a society making marvelous progress when compared with other societies. Maybe if those people realized that this life has a fully intended good purpose, they would work harder, help each other more, and seek inspiration without blaming Adam for not having God’s presence in their life. Maybe then their culture would develop into “paradise found” with unsurpassed progress in caring for their poor, feeding their hungry, and raising children who would see that their potential with Christ’s good shepherding help in their lives, is absolutely marvelous.

Are you really saying that it is Catholic belief to “[blame] Adam for not having God’s presence in [our lives]”? Here I was thinking that Catholics believe we not only are baptized into Christ, receive the Holy Spirit at confirmation, but also literally have Jesus Christ present in every Catholic church around the world, in the Eucharist You seem to be implying that Catholic belief leads to believing that life does not have a “fully intended good purpose”, blaming Adam for not having God’s presence in life (which doesn’t really make sense…), and some interesting statements on Catholic charity, which are a little hilarious, sorry.

 

[ParkerD]

Are you really saying that it is Catholic belief to “[blame] Adam for not having God’s presence in [our lives]”? Here I was thinking that Catholics believe we not only are baptized into Christ, receive the Holy Spirit at confirmation, but also literally have Jesus Christ present in every Catholic church around the world, in the Eucharist You seem to be implying that Catholic belief leads to believing that life does not have a “fully intended good purpose”, blaming Adam for not having God’s presence in life (which doesn’t really make sense…), and some interesting statements on Catholic charity, which are a little hilarious, sorry.

Religio71,
Several have commented here that God intended for the garden of Eden to continue, and that that condition was a condition of perfection. They have also said that God’s presence has been lost in this life because of Adam and Eve. I didn’t say it–they did. They lamented the loss.

How can one not subconsciously think that they would be better off with a garden of Eden situation, if that is how they are taught about it? A poster said “Adam blew it” implying that he blew it for all of humankind.

I am saying that this life as it is does have a “fully intended good purpose.” I don’t sense that much of the Catholic response here has supported that position. It is as though they are saying this life is second-rate compared to “what it could have been.”

As to Catholic charity, I wasn’t talking about the church as an institution. I was talking about when you visit a country that is predominantly Catholic, their motivation should be so high (except for this constraint of having a little bit of misgiving about the impact of Adam’s sin on their progress and happiness) that the church wouldn’t have to offer institutional help, because the people would already be helping each other and already be so readily inspired and working effectively together that there would be no children going hungry at all, or virtually none.