Question about BoM on Original Sin

[zaffiroborant]

I cited the menstrual cycle because it involves a type of “life” (an egg) and a type of “death” (an unfertilized egg dies and is discarded by the body, and usually pain and blood are involved in the cycle.)

Well the hair on our bodies involves a type of “death” too does that mean Adam and Eve were bald As to menstrual pain, I grew up in a large and very close extended family that was heavily weighted toward girls (1 boy for every 5 girls) add in friends roommates and I have to say it doesn’t usually involve pain. Sometimes, some people but it is not the usual.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,
Thanks for emphasizing the Tree of Life. I totally agree that is it what “God works at bringing us to.” Great phrase!

If no death, then how long would it have been before this very good world of ours couldn’t hold all the people and have them survive providently? (I suppose perhaps the intent was for there to have been a shorter time period for the history of the world and the peopling of it?)

Parker you are basing your views on the world as it is. Since it is not as it is meant to be, and we know nothing else, you really can’t say. Only God knows.

Further, since this is a thread on mormonism, your belief that this world is going to become the celestial world (kingdom)…you face the same population dilemma. How many gods and goddesses can you fit on one planet?

I cited the menstrual cycle because it involves a type of “life” (an egg) and a type of “death” (an unfertilized egg dies and is discarded by the body, and usually pain and blood are involved in the cycle.)

An unfertilized egg is not a life. As zaff has pointed out, menstrual cramps is not experienced by all. It is not a requirement for normal body function.

I again express that I appreciate having read your perspective, and I totally respect your beliefs and think they are valuable. I feel there are some profound implications that may be over-simplified by those beliefs, such as that opposition is necessary for our growth.

This is your view because this is the fallen world that you live in. Your “theology”, as it is, is based on the sins of the world, not on God’s desires.

To me, the universe “cries out” with the truth of “balance” in all things–in nature, in light matter/dark matter or energy, in how orbits are held in place and so forth. To me, opposition is a necessary and integral part of that balance. Please don’t be disappointed that I don’t agree with the premise that God created a “good world” and didn’t have a plan that included the eventuality (if Adam and Eve chose) of there being opposition within that world.

You only have to read the Bible, sans your erroneous “scripture”, to understand that God is good and He creates all in perfection. It is His creation, us, that corrupt what God has made.

We hold no belief that God desires our opposition. Cooperation with God is our desire, weak as we are in what we actually do.

 

[ParkerD]

Well the hair on our bodies involves a type of “death” too does that mean Adam and Eve were bald As to menstrual pain, I grew up in a large and very close extended family that was heavily weighted toward girls (1 boy for every 5 girls) add in friends roommates and I have to say it doesn’t usually involve pain. Sometimes, some people but it is not the usual.

Zaffiroborant,
I’m reading an encyclopedia where a scientist/consultant/author has written about menstruation, “If the egg is not fertilized, it cannot attach to the uterine wall. It dies and passes out of the body.” How come a scientist thinks the egg is “alive” such that “it dies”?

To compare hair to an egg that is considered a living entity by science and that has the potential to become a human body, seems pretty much a stretch to make the point you tried to make. I don’t agree–sorry.

I wish my wife had been one of the fortunate ones you wrote about. I guess we can eliminate the factor of menstrual pain since its not universal.

 

[TruthisBeauty7]

theres no such thing as sin if evolution is true… man cant be blamed for sin if evolution is true.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker you are basing your views on the world as it is. Since it is not as it is meant to be, and we know nothing else, you really can’t say. Only God knows.

Further, since this is a thread on mormonism, your belief that this world is going to become the celestial world (kingdom)…you face the same population dilemma. How many gods and goddesses can you fit on one planet?

An unfertilized egg is not a life. As zaff has pointed out, menstrual cramps is not experienced by all. It is not a requirement for normal body function.

This is your view because this is the fallen world that you live in. Your “theology”, as it is, is based on the sins of the world, not on God’s desires.

You only have to read the Bible, sans your erroneous “scripture”, to understand that God is good and He creates all in perfection. It is His creation, us, that corrupt what God has made.

We hold no belief that God desires our opposition. Cooperation with God is our desire, weak as we are in what we actually do.

Rebecca J,
I appreciate again your perspective. I suppose if you want a guess, that there may conceivably be two or three billion or so “gods and goddesses”, given that many many young children have died young and that the Millenium will include more new births than ever before in history, plus the decision-making that is going on in the spirit world.

I disagree totally that my “theology” is “based on the sins of the world.” My theology acknowledges that humankind have a dual nature, and that the tendency to act sinfully is part of that dual nature, but we each can choose and we don’t have to blame Adam and Eve for making a choice that we now “must” live with (their choice to fall) while wishing it “weren’t so.” I personally think that’s cognitive dissonant psychology. I think God desires our progress, and like a muscle grows when it pushes against something, we grow when we push against something that is in opposition to what we happen to want. (That was a simple analogy.)

I disagree that God created everything “in perfection.” My Bible says he created Adam and Eve, and through them created all humankind. I hope you’re not saying that Adam and Eve were really supposed to “be perfect” in every way, and that everyone thereafter was also. I disagree super-strongly if that is the belief you hold.

I wasn’t saying God “desires our opposition.”(I’m not sure what you meant by that phrase) I was saying God allows opposition to happen in our world, which He created in a certain deliberate and carefully planned way, and allows opposition for a good ultimate purpose that we sometimes struggle to understand.

I might as well say that I like our world. I think it’s a beautiful place, a wonderful place, full of love and light and joy. I welcome the opposition that I have grown from in my own life. I would never want to have a “free ride” where I was not learning from experiences that include difficulties. (But I’m not asking for new ones except for the fact that I have given my will and heart to Christ to shape as He may see I need shaping.) I certainly had a lot of shaping that needed to happen up to this point, and I’m grateful for it. I made it through OK, and I am deeply grateful for His help and support for me and for my wife who had to put up with me while I learned a lot of things about relationships that I absolutely was clueless about and needed to know.

Have a lovely and peaceful day, truly. I assume that you will.

 

[SeattleCatholic]

Yes, but why are you reading it? It’s not true. Adam and Eve knew joy they lived in happiness because God was among them. When they sinned they shoved God out of their hearts and gave up true happiness which now can only be found in Heaven. Reading non Catholic books are dangerous, you can get the faith messed up.

Thanks for your reply. I am reading the BoM so that I can have a dialogue with a friend who is Mormon. I want to be able to discuss faith with her from a point of knowledge and understanding. I am strong in my Catholic faith and reading this book will not change my beliefs.

 

[SeattleCatholic]

Parker,

Thank you for your response and insight. I have a further question for you. In your response, you said…

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were innocent and had no sense of joy because there was no opposition: there were no problems to overcome, no trials or challenges or difficulties to face, no real work to do since the garden was bringing forth fruit in abundance. Did they like that condition? (Not necessarily.)

I understand your contrasting Adam and Eve’s joy with not having any opposition, but I would think they would feel joy because they were in the presence of God. God moved about the Garden of Eden and they could interact with Him. At least that is my understanding of Genesis.

I compare this to what our experience of Heaven will be like (not that they were in Heaven). In Heaven, we won’t experience trial, but we will feel joy because we are in the presence of God. So, being in the presence of God in the Garden of Eden, wouldn’t Adam and Eve have joy?

Thanks!

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

Thank you for your response and insight. I have a further question for you. In your response, you said…

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were innocent and had no sense of joy because there was no opposition: there were no problems to overcome, no trials or challenges or difficulties to face, no real work to do since the garden was bringing forth fruit in abundance. Did they like that condition? (Not necessarily.)"

I understand your contrasting Adam and Eve’s joy with not having any opposition, but I would think they would feel joy because they were in the presence of God. God moved about the Garden of Eden and they could interact with Him. At least that is my understanding of Genesis.

I compare this to what our experience of Heaven will be like (not that they were in Heaven). In Heaven, we won’t experience trial, but we will feel joy because we are in the presence of God. So, being in the presence of God in the Garden of Eden, wouldn’t Adam and Eve have joy?

Thanks!

Seattle Catholic,
You may have read the post by Finrock, or you may have heard about the LDS belief in the pre-mortal life. Our belief is that we lived in the presence of God in a pre-mortal life before we came to earth at our birth, and at birth a “veil” hides any memory we might otherwise have within our spirit, of that life before. We believe that in that pre-mortal life we had limited joy, in that we could feel God’s love abundantly and loved Him but we had no body to experience physical sensations and to experience the joy that could only come by experiencing the choices and difficulties of mortality.

I don’t think the Bible infers that Adam and Eve had “joy” even though they walked and talked with God, and of course would have felt God’s love. I would liken it more to a baby who feels loved and secure in the presence of his/her mother, but I wouldn’t call a baby’s first month of life having “joy.” Joy just seems more complex than that. Wordworth wrote that “heaven lies about us in our infancy”, and I think getting a connection inside our hearts with nature and with God’s love do facilitate joy, but even life in the presence of God with only the work of a naturally abundant garden to tend to and with the companionship of one person but neither one having experienced very much at all, doesn’t sound like what I would describe as “joyful”. It doesn’t sound depressing, either–it just sounds similar to a baby with a loving parent at its side, except the baby can already talk and walk and think mature thoughts.

I think Eve sensed something was missing from her life–their lives–and she was anxious to figure out what it was. I think if she had felt “complete” and “fulfilled” and “fully joyful” then she would not have even considered the serpent’s tempting words. She would have had an allegiance to Adam and certainly an allegiance to God that would have been stronger than the impact of a chance encounter with such a stranger to her–unless she was already thinking about and trying to figure out “what was missing.”

I hope this has made some sense.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
I’m reading an encyclopedia where a scientist/consultant/author has written about menstruation, “If the egg is not fertilized, it cannot attach to the uterine wall. It dies and passes out of the body.” How come a scientist thinks the egg is “alive” such that “it dies”?

To compare hair to an egg that is considered a living entity by science and that has the potential to become a human body, seems pretty much a stretch to make the point you tried to make. I don’t agree–sorry.

I wish my wife had been one of the fortunate ones you wrote about. I guess we can eliminate the factor of menstrual pain since its not universal.

Did you know that people also think that skins cell are “alive” and that they “die”, all the cells in your body are considered alive and subject to death.

So I think the point stands, you need dead cells to create hair, if there was no menstruation because female reproductive cells couldn’t die then the same would have to hold true with hair.

 

[ParkerD]

Did you know that people also think that skins cell are “alive” and that they “die”, all the cells in your body are considered alive and subject to death.

So I think the point stands, you need dead cells to create hair, if there was no menstruation because female reproductive cells couldn’t die then the same would have to hold true with hair.

Zaffiroborant,
OK–let’s go with your train of thought and follow it. In your mind, how long were Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and did they have children while they were there? If not, why not, and was Eve pregnant when they were cast out? I’m curious what you think the answer is when you consider these kinds of questions. I think they are legitimate questions given your premise.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
OK–let’s go with your train of thought and follow it. In your mind, how long were Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, and did they have children while they were there? If not, why not, and was Eve pregnant when they were cast out? I’m curious what you think the answer is when you consider these kinds of questions. I think they are legitimate questions given your premise.

Well I consider baldness a legitimate question considering your premise that it was not possible for a cell to die.

Scriptures don’t mention any children born in the Garden so no I don’t think they had any children in the Garden. Why they didn’t? I don’t know. But I don’t believe it was because Eve didn’t menstruate, so she may have been pregnant when they were cast out. As to how long they were there, I have imagined both a short and a long stay, though neither one involved an exact amount of time. Overall I don’t really find that the lines of speculation you attach so much importance do much for me spiritually. This may be because I have a very different understanding of the events in the Garden. Your dismissal of pride (which is integral in my understanding) shows the gulf we have when viewing the events in the Garden. Your understanding of the Fall brings to mind a quote from Oscar Wilde. Not that I would just know this but my daughter and I were looking for quotes(after I read your response) for an art project and ran across this:

Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion

This seems to me to be what you are saying about the fall, it’s just more direct and quite frankly I don’t see how disobedience can not involve pride.

You find many important points in your theology to reflect upon in the events in the Garden ,not surprising considering that it is the focus of your temple ceremonies, we don’t focus on Genesis the way you do so it plays less of a role in our reflections. Perhaps the Holy Family is an equivalent point of reflection in our theology. I know for me wondering about the life of the Holy Family and Mother Mary is more spiritually productive(for lack of a better word) than wondering about Adam and Eves reproductive abilities and choices.

 

[ParkerD]

Well I consider baldness a legitimate question considering your premise that it was not possible for a cell to die.

Scriptures don’t mention any children born in the Garden so no I don’t think they had any children in the Garden. Why they didn’t? I don’t know. But I don’t believe it was because Eve didn’t menstruate, so she may have been pregnant when they were cast out. As to how long they were there, I have imagined both a short and a long stay, though neither one involved an exact amount of time. Overall I don’t really find that the lines of speculation you attach so much importance do much for me spiritually. This may be because I have a very different understanding of the events in the Garden. Your dismissal of pride (which is integral in my understanding) shows the gulf we have when viewing the events in the Garden. Your understanding of the Fall brings to mind a quote from Oscar Wilde. Not that I would just know this but my daughter and I were looking for quotes(after I read your response) for an art project and ran across this:

Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion

This seems to me to be what you are saying about the fall, it’s just more direct and quite frankly I don’t see how disobedience can not involve pride.

You find many important points in your theology to reflect upon in the events in the Garden ,not surprising considering that it is the focus of your temple ceremonies, we don’t focus on Genesis the way you do so it plays less of a role in our reflections. Perhaps the Holy Family is an equivalent point of reflection in our theology. I know for me wondering about the life of the Holy Family and Mother Mary is more spiritually productive(for lack of a better word) than wondering about Adam and Eves reproductive abilities and choices.

Zaffiroborant,
Genesis 4:1 comes after the fall, and says Adam “knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain…” That sequence may or may not be important, but it is certainly there in the Bible.

Thanks for the Oscar Wilde quote. I think of that quote (which I hadn’t read before, not being a reader of Oscar Wilde’s writings) as meaning humankind has progressed when a person stopped living within the bounds of the “status quo” of their particular society. He could be talking about Galileo; he could be talking about Wycliffe and Tyndale; he could be talking about the writers and participants who fostered the French revolution and the American revolution.

He seems also to be talking about Eve and the risk she took by being disobedient–yes, absolutely. I would assume Oscar Wilde considered her disobedience to have been “progress”, and I am saying I think that is correct.

If by pride you mean “self-will” including seeking “self-knowledge” including “to think about myself and my needs and wants and whether my inborn desires can lead to something greater than what I am now experiencing” (which could have reasonably been on Eve’s mind), then I guess Eve had pride by your definition. I don’t call that pride. I call it self-exploration, and I think it is a necessary part of psychological growth.

I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the garden of Eden, but I do reflect often on the need for opposition in life, and on my own growth through “opposition experiences” I have had. That is why I “celebrate” Eve’s choice, and consider it a good thing in terms of what it did for humankind including myself and my children. I think more about Christ in that context than about Eve, and rejoice that His plan and the Father’s plan included providing the opportunity for this absolutely necessary learning process of experience rather than just being verbally taught about what opposition is like. I don’t think we could have learned it by just being taught about it, and I think our growth would have been very limited if we did all live in the garden of Eden without opposition.

I should note importantly that I feel the presence of God in my life every day, and feel very definitely that spiritual “rebirth” is abundantly possible, including the abundant communication available through the Holy Ghost, so I think spiritual death has been overcome by Christ and the lack of “walking and talking” with God face to face is replaced abundantly by “walking and talking” with God through prayer and the communication that comes from the Holy Ghost that is tangible and real. Thus I know by personal experience (as well as by believing the scriptures) that Christ overcame the “spiritual death” effect of the fall, and I know by the Holy Ghost (as well as by the scriptures) that Christ overcame the “physical death” effect of the fall and that the physical corporeal resurrection will come to every single mortal person.

 

[SeattleCatholic]

Hi SeattleCatholic. Good evening to you!

I love this section of the Book of Mormon and I think you’ve made a great observation. I can answer this question simply or with comments for clarification. Simply answered, I would say that in a sense God did “will” for the fall to occur, if by “will” we understand that this is something God wanted to happen. If we understand by “will” that God used His power to force the Fall come about, then I don’t believe that this is the case.

Now, for a more thorough answer I need to first make some general statements about what the LDS church teaches about our purpose in life and so forth. To understand the Fall from the LDS perspective it is essential to know that we pre-existed with God in Heaven prior to Earth life. In this pre-existence, we were spirits, without physical bodies. Sometime prior to the Earth being created, God explained His plan for us. In Heaven, we were given a choice to follow God’s plan, or to reject it. The purpose of God’s plan for us was to bring to pass our immortality and our eternal life. Immortality deals with having a physical body that is perfect, undying, and glorified. Eternal life deals with being joint-heirs with Christ and sharing in God’s life. It is important to understand that in our pre-existent state God covenanted with us that He would provide the place and a means by which we could receive immortality and eternal life.

In order for God’s purposes to come about, we first need a body. The mortal Earth life would provide that for us. Second, to receive eternal life, one must past through a testing phase. In order for the test to be meaningful and one that teaches us godly virtues, it must allow for free agency. It will also require a condition that will require us to exercise faith, to suffer through trials, to experience sorrow, to work, in short, to experience what we now experience as mortality. Mortal life, with all that it entails, is a requirement for exaltation. Once we understand this, then we can begin to see why God setup the conditions in the Garden as He did. Remember that God had covenanted with us that He would provide a place and a means for us to have immortality and eternal life. And, God knows perfectly what is required so that those things can be accomplished. God couldn’t just make Adam and Eve evil and sinful. Neither could He force them to choose mortality and trangression of His law. But, what He did do was place them in a good place, they were placed in the Garden in a state of innocence, they were given a choice and consequences for their choices, and God also allowed Satan to be in the Garden to temp them. With these conditions, Adam and Eve could now freely choose to transgress God’s commandment or not. I think that it is evident that God wants Adam and Eve to Fall, not because He wants them to sin, but because He knows that there is no other way for them to receive the things that He has in store for them. He wants them to fall, so that they can have an opportunity to gain immortality and eternal life. Once Adam and Eve partake of the forbidden fruit, they too recognize that it is better for them to pass through trials and tribulations so that they can have eternal life.

Usually people have a problem with the idea that God wanted Adam and Eve to Fall. Sometimes this is even misunderstood that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin. This, of course, isn’t the case. I think that in the same sense that God wanted Satan to be in the Garden (because had God not wanted Satan to be in the Garden He could have easily cast him out, but God chose not to) because Satan served to fulfill God’s plan as a tempter, in the same way God wanted Adam and Eve to Fall so that His plan could be realized by placing them in to that state of existence that will allow them to have His greatest blessings.

This whole explanation wouldn’t be complete, though, if I didn’t discuss that fact that God knew all of these things would occur and He provided a way for Adam and Eve to be saved. God the Father promised us a Savior, who would make up for the transgression of Adam, so that the general effects of the Fall of Adam and Eve are swallowed up in the grace of Christ’s atonement. But, furthermore, our personal sins can also be cleansed if we accept the atonement and apply it in our life. Even though God knew Adam would fall and He wanted Adam to fall so that Adam could have a chance at gaining immortality and eternal life, He also provided a means whereby Adam could be saved. God extended His mercy to Adam and to his posterity (all of us). So the fact that we can experience mortality in all of its implications is ultimately a good thing. God is fulfilling His covenant with us to provide us with a place and a means whereby He can bring to pass our immortality and eternal life.

Well, even if you do not agree with me, I hope that I’ve at least have been able to express my thoughts in a way that is understandable. Forgive me for any unintelligable parts, and allow me to clarify them if you come across any.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Finrock,

Thank you for that thorough explanation of Mormon belief on original sin. Even though I do not agree with it, your explanation helped me gain understanding on this particular teaching.

I really appreciate everyone’s feedback (both Mormon and Catholic).

 

[SeattleCatholic]

Parker you are basing your views on the world as it is. Since it is not as it is meant to be, and we know nothing else, you really can’t say. Only God knows.

Rebecca,

I think you make a really good point here. Yes, in our fallen state, we appreciate joy more because we also experience sadness. But I cannot see how this would imply that Adam and Eve wouldn’t feel joy while in the Garden of Eden, in the presence of God. If anything, I would think that their joy would be greater than anything we can experience here in the fallen world.

I think the main thing I see is that Mormon belief in the spirit life before a person received their mortal body makes it necessary for original sin to have happened, where in Catholic belief, original sin isn’t necessary for our existence here on earth. (Hope I worded that clearly.)

Again, thanks for all of your responses!!!

 

[ParkerD]

Rebecca,

I think you make a really good point here. Yes, in our fallen state, we appreciate joy more because we also experience sadness. But I cannot see how this would imply that Adam and Eve wouldn’t feel joy while in the Garden of Eden, in the presence of God. If anything, I would think that their joy would be greater than anything we can experience here in the fallen world.

I think the main thing I see is that Mormon belief in the spirit life before a person received their mortal body makes it necessary for original sin to have happened, where in Catholic belief, original sin isn’t necessary for our existence here on earth. (Hope I worded that clearly.)

Again, thanks for all of your responses!!!

Seattle Catholic and Rebecca and Zaffiroborant,
I also thank each of you for adding to my understanding of Catholic beliefs.

The Apostle James seems to have had the purposeful need for being “tried” by opposition in mind when he wrote his epistle, particularly chapter 1 of James. He said,
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Isaiah also highlighted the aspect of joy that comes through understanding the gift of our redemption through Christ, and His pardoning of our sins but also His drying of our tears. (See Isaiah 25:4, 8)
I love his writings, among them Isaiah 53 which is so poignant about His having carried our griefs and our sorrows, and Isaiah 12:3, “Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.” I think this was part of the plan of salvation from before the foundation of this world. I think the Bible makes that repeatedly and amply clear. God wanted us to need to rely on Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. He also wanted us to have a higher level of joy that was available if we “draw water out of the wells of salvation.” That need and that joy are interconnected, not an afterthought.

Peace to each of you, and to all readers here.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,

I think you make a really good point here. Yes, in our fallen state, we appreciate joy more because we also experience sadness. But I cannot see how this would imply that Adam and Eve wouldn’t feel joy while in the Garden of Eden, in the presence of God. If anything, I would think that their joy would be greater than anything we can experience here in the fallen world.

I think the main thing I see is that Mormon belief in the spirit life before a person received their mortal body makes it necessary for original sin to have happened, where in Catholic belief, original sin isn’t necessary for our existence here on earth. (Hope I worded that clearly.)

Again, thanks for all of your responses!!!

hi SeattleCatholic,

I think you got it right. My friend and I have discussed this IRL. It boils down to:

• Our belief is that we are created for Heaven. Disobedience, sin, is what removes us from His presence.
• The mormon belief is that they begin life purposely removed from the presence of their god, and by obedience they hope their god will judge them worthy to return.

They look through the wrong end of the telescope.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Seattle Catholic and Rebecca and Zaffiroborant,
I also thank each of you for adding to my understanding of Catholic beliefs.

The Apostle James seems to have had the purposeful need for being “tried” by opposition in mind when he wrote his epistle, particularly chapter 1 of James. He said,
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Hi Parker, we view these in the light that by the Sacrifice of Jesus, and our baptism, we are made joint heirs with Christ. James is telling us the same thing that St. Paul tells us, endure to the end. Not a striving to gain something we don’t have, but to not lose what God has given us.

We see the same message in the Garden.

We are now, in this life, living in the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah also highlighted the aspect of joy that comes through understanding the gift of our redemption through Christ, and His pardoning of our sins but also His drying of our tears. (See Isaiah 25:4, 8)
I love his writings, among them Isaiah 53 which is so poignant about His having carried our griefs and our sorrows, and Isaiah 12:3, “Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.” I think this was part of the plan of salvation from before the foundation of this world. I think the Bible makes that repeatedly and amply clear. God wanted us to need to rely on Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. He also wanted us to have a higher level of joy that was available if we “draw water out of the wells of salvation.” That need and that joy are interconnected, not an afterthought.

Peace to each of you, and to all readers here.

Parker, God wants us to rely on God. Jesus IS GOD. Of course God’s desire to be with Him is not an afterthought, it is how God created the world! God Sacrificed His only Begotten, in order to reconcile the world to Him. The Cross is the central message of Christianity. Not an afterthought.

We are an Easter people, and alleluia is our song!

God bless you on this day that we celebrate the Ascension of Jesus Christ.

 

[why_me]

The following article from the lds magazine Ensign gives light to what the mormons believe about Adam. and modern revelation:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1998.htm/ensign%20january%201998.htm/what%20modern%20revelation%20teaches%20about%20adam.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

I think that OP will find it interesting as it shows just how revolutionary lds doctrine is, in a good way of course.

And this sheds light on modern revelation and adam:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1990.htm/ensign%20january%201990.htm/the%20fall%20of%20man%20and%20his%20redemption.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

 

[rmcmullan]

There were two trees in the Garden of Eden: The Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge. Adam and Eve were forbidden the Tree of Knowledge but, until their transgression, ate freely from the Tree of Life. In LDS teachings, there are three principles in play here: agency, justice and mercy. Adam and Eve were free to obey or not but in the day the chose not to, they would die. That is why there was a cherubim set up to guard the Tree of Life after the fall.

Agency allowed A&E to chose. Justice compelled them to leave the garden. Mercy allows them to return to the presence of God but only through the atonement of the Son and that only through repentance and obedience to His will.

 

[SeattleCatholic]

The following article from the lds magazine Ensign gives light to what the mormons believe about Adam. and modern revelation:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1998.htm/ensign%20january%201998.htm/what%20modern%20revelation%20teaches%20about%20adam.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

I think that OP will find it interesting as it shows just how revolutionary lds doctrine is, in a good way of course.

And this sheds light on modern revelation and adam:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1990.htm/ensign%20january%201990.htm/the%20fall%20of%20man%20and%20his%20redemption.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

Thank you for those resources. I found them quite…interesting. But they do help explain the great difference between Catholic and Mormon teaching. I appreciate your help!