Question about BoM on Original Sin

[RebeccaJ]

Finrock, thanks for the reply. I think you have the same odd contradictions going that Parker does. Have a good evening.

 

[Finrock]

Finrock, thanks for the reply.

You are very welcome, RebeccaJ!

I think you have the same odd contradictions going that Parker does.

I wouldn’t put it past me that due to my fallible nature I’ve not succeeded in communicating my point across in a sufficiently clear way, but I’ve reviewed my posts and the actual concept that I’m trying to express, and I don’t find any contradictory elements at all.

Have a good evening.

Thank you, and you have a good evening as well.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Religio71]

what is spiritual death? what causes it?

 

[ParkerD]

what is spiritual death? what causes it?

Religio71,
These are good questions. I think Paul answered those pretty effectively when he wrote in Romans 8:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

So, spiritual death comes to those who walk “after the flesh.” In other words, those who sin without repenting become spiritually dead because they become dead to the influence of the Spirit. I think this passage contains several important truths in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for asking these questions, and all the best to you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You are very welcome, RebeccaJ!

I wouldn’t put it past me that due to my fallible nature I’ve not succeeded in communicating my point across in a sufficiently clear way, but I’ve reviewed my posts and the actual concept that I’m trying to express, and I don’t find any contradictory elements at all.

Thank you, and you have a good evening as well.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

hi Finrock, the contradiction is your beliefs that I already laid out for Parker. You believe that the Sacrifice of the Son of God is necessary, but refuse to acknowledge that it was sin that made this necessary. Adam was punished, he would now return to the dust from where he was made. We all share in this punishment.

If you follow the OT, you see that the People of God are judged as righteous and non-righteous, as a community. A good example would be when Moses comes back from speaking with God, and there are people worshiping a golden calf. Don’t you think it is likely that there are people who were not, and did not want to participate? Don’t you think there were infants and young children? There they are, as a People of God, wandering together for 40 years. Were infants and young children in this group kept from wandering? Do you think some of them never saw the promised land. Like Moses, who died before reaching it. Were these young innocents being punished unfairly?

We understand that God has created a communion of people. Jesus enlarged the People of God to more than Israel, it is all nations, kindred, tongues and people. Yes, we are individuals, and God will judge us. But you notice, and I know Mormons believe, that we are also judged in how we are in communion with each other. “Love they neighbor”, is a commandment to live as one, Godly, People.

We understand the same about the Atonement. Christ atoned for all of us, as a community of humans. We understand that the fall of Adam, as our first parent, made us all fallen. As a community.

Physical death is one of the punishments given to Adam and Eve. The other is they were separated from God, quite literally, but also in a spiritual sense. You have a contradiction, where you believe that we all suffer the result of Original sin (though you don’t call it that), that is physical death. But you fail to understand that spiritual death, a separation from God, occurred.

To us it obvious. The OT is nothing but a constant story of God bringing His People to Him. Over and over and over. It was but a foreshadowing of what was to come. The day when we were reconciled forever to God by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

The contradiction is puzzling, to say the least. You have it so close, but fall short. The only reason I can see for this is that you find it difficult to believe that all of humanity has suffered a separation from God, together as a community, because of the sin of Adam. A child born before the death and resurrection of Jesus was in the same condition as the oldest adult. Separated from God. Not only would they experience a physical death, but their souls would not be with God. A soul separated from God would suffer a spiritual death, were it not for the Sacrifice of God.

Jesus reconciled all of us to Him. Both spiritually and physically. If this was not needed for children, then why was His Sacrifice necessary for them at all? Why would a child suffer a physical death if s/he were not a part of the punishment given to Adam? You answer half-way. You believe it was needed for physical death, you fail to take into account spiritual death. The separation of our souls from God.

 

[Finrock]

Religio71 and RebeccaJ, good morning to both of you!

I’m addressing both of you because your comments and question are related. I still think that some of the disconnect is due to semantics. I was hoping that when I provided my definition of Original Sin from a Catholic apologist, that my Catholic audience would have validated or corrected that definition if need be. I assumed because noone argued against my supplied definition, that you agreed with it. I’m beginning to sense that perhaps the definition for Original Sin I understood to apply to Catholic beliefs, doesn’t apply.

I’m defining Original Sin to pass on not not only the effects of the fall, but to also pass on the guilt from it. Is this incorrect?

Now, there is no contradiction in stating that a person can suffer the effects of another person’s actions, yet they are not guilty of the other person’s actions. RebeccaJ, I think this is what you were intending to illustrate with your example of Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. If you were saying, in essence, that children, although free of any guilt from their parent’s sins, can be effected by those sins, then I agree.

Now, RebeccaJ, you stated that I neglected to take in to account one of the effects of the fall, namely spiritual death. In fact, I did take spiritual death in to account. From the beginning I’ve acknowledged both. But, even if I had not, this wouldn’t be a contradiction, as you stated. To use Aristole’s definition, a contradiction is that “One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time.” None of my propositions violated the law of non-contradiction. However, I think that is besides the point, because I do recognize spiritual death and physical death as both being effects of the fall and I addressed both points specifically.

Religio71, you asked what is spiritual death and what is the cause of it? Based on the scriptures I believe in, I understand spiritual death to be twofold:

1. Spiritual death is to be “…shut out from God’s presence” physically.
2. Spiritual death is to be spiritually estranged from God.

This first fold of spiritual death is caused by the Fall of Adam, and we are all born in to this condition. The second fold of spiritual death is caused by personal sin, and it effects only the individual who committed the sin. It is no contradiction to state that a person can be physically shut out from God’s presence, yet they are not spiritually estranged from God. This is my whole point, in one sentence.

We are born in to this world physically separated from God, but not spiritually estranged from Him, not until we become accountable for our actions. When we are capable of committing sin and we commit sin, then we become spiritually estranged from God. Mormonism rejects any notion that we come in to this world guilty of sin, therefore making an infant spiritually estranged from God.

There is much more that could be said and address, but I’ll leave it at that until I get some feedback. It could be that we are both saying the same thing, but just understanding terms differently.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m defining Original Sin to pass on not not only the effects of the fall, but to also pass on the guilt from it. Is this incorrect?

No, the guilt is not ours. You will find no Catholic doctrine of “Original guilt”. It doesn’t exist.

We do view the separation from God that occurred because of the disobedience of Adam as a punishment. Since by our fallen nature we share in this punishment, some Catholics will use the term guilt, but it is not in the sense that you are thinking.

We are born in to this world physically separated from God, but not spiritually estranged from Him, not until we become accountable for our actions. When we are capable of committing sin and we commit sin, then we become spiritually estranged from God. Mormonism rejects any notion that we come in to this world guilty of sin, therefore making an infant spiritually estranged from God.

Yes, it is a contradiction. Sin has an effect on the soul. Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve were holy before God. Their sin is what separated them, and us, from God. To separate the soul from the body and the body from the soul is not even logical. What happened to Adam and Eve happened to them both physically and spiritually.

The contradiction you have is that Adam and Eve were separated, and so are we, only you simultaneously believe we were not. You attempt to separate corporal punishment from spiritual punishment. There is no basis for this.

Jesus reconciled us to God, both body and soul. The sin of Adam and Eve can no longer keep us from our destiny, which is to be with God. What can keep us from our destiny is our own sins. This is what St. Paul speaks about when he speaks of our sins separating us from God. He explains very well that God reconciled us to Him, and so it is that we seek holiness, to be free from sin, in order to remain with Him.

Also Finrock, you baptize children at 8 years old, for what purpose? If you believe they are free from sin until that age, then what sin has made their soul in need of baptism?