Question about Gay Marriage

[Elizabeth502]

First off it really bothers me how most of you say gay “marriage” second, both my boyfriend and I are very involved Catholics. We love celebrating mass together and often talk about our faith. I dint understand how, as one of the earlier posts stated, we marriage wouldn’t bring us closer to God. I try every day to follow the two most important commandments, and I honestly believe that this relationship has strengthened my faith. I’ve dated others who were not Catholic, or even Christian, and it made me realize how important is is to love God to uphold a relationship. Maybe it’s because of my perspective, but I don’t understand how gay couples couldn’t grow closer to God through the sacrament of marriage.

Only because marriage was instituted between two different genders. That’s why you can’t participate in the marriage part. However, all friendships and all close relationships without sex are nevertheless holy and in themselves blessed, though not sacramentally. (“Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.”) When you love each other non-physically, you love Christ and are united with the Body of Christ in that communion of friendship.

While there are 7 (still 7? ) Sacraments with a capital S, we should treat our daily associations with others sacramentally with a small ‘s’. Certainly the Saints did. In this way we sanctify the everyday and make Christ present.

All Christians are called to chastity, relative to their legitimate state. Single straight people who are physically attracted to each other are denied a sexual expression. There may even be impediments to their marriage which disallow that ultimate union. Even if the individuals eventually marry others, they may never find those marriages quite as fulfilllng as that former one. Yet even the most fulfilling human relationship is a weak and incomplete shadow of the most intimate relationship of all: our individual relationship with God, which brings us blessings & graces not just eventually, but now.

 

[iamme]

Just for the sake of clarity: if you meant “you mean I can never CONTEMPLATE the incomprehensible?!?” then I would respond that of course we are obligated to contemplate and attempt to understand God. Scripture tells us to Love God with all our MIND…

and of course thats what i meant…
im a wee bit older than a 5 year old, and i doubt my words have betrayed me as a simpleton…

 

[PRmerger]

and of course thats what i meant…
im a wee bit older than a 5 year old, and i doubt my words have betrayed me as a simpleton…

Ok. Then my answer remains the same: OF COURSE you must contemplate the incomprehensible.

 

[PRmerger]

if you voted on prop 8, how did you, and if you didnt get to how would you have voted, and why?

I don’t have enough info on Prop 8 to give any opinion.

My dialogue with you concerns your understanding of God and why you think the Catholic Church should not oppose gay marriage.

not at all, you now say no disagreement, when in the post i quoted you WERE making a disagreement, making my “intentionally dense” remark not rude, but true, by your own words and lack of consistency…

I agree with this statement you made: *but saying you think people SHOULD be considerate, and forcing them to do so are two completely different things. *

So what’s your point?

 

[NoMoreGames]

iamme, my contribution was made with complete honesty and sincerity, so, not to sound like a jerk, but I could deal without the sarcasm.

second, ok, marriage began as something between a man and a woman, in a time where homosexuality was just a greek thing where teens ran around, having sex with who ever they wanted. In fact, at that time there wasn’t even a word for the concept to which homosexuality refers to today. This is nothing like some (not saying all) of the legitimate gay couples who genuinely love each other and God. But so many things in the faith have changed, what’s wrong with changing something the began on the wrong foot? Abusive, drug dependent, or barely faithful couples can get married as long as a), they are heterosexual, and b) they can hide their problems from the church well enough. What’s wrong with two loving males or females committing themselves in front of God?

 

[Kevin42]

iamme, my contribution was made with complete honesty and sincerity, so, not to sound like a jerk, but I could deal without the sarcasm.

second, ok, marriage began as something between a man and a woman, in a time where homosexuality was just a greek thing where teens ran around, having sex with who ever they wanted. In fact, at that time there wasn’t even a word for the concept to which homosexuality refers to today. This is nothing like some (not saying all) of the legitimate gay couples who genuinely love each other and God. But so many things in the faith have changed, what’s wrong with changing something the began on the wrong foot? Abusive, drug dependent, or barely faithful couples can get married as long as a), they are heterosexual, and b) they can hide their problems from the church well enough. What’s wrong with two loving males or females committing themselves in front of God?

Catechism 1601:

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

This is why homosexuals cannot marry. Even if the Church wanted to change this, she does not have the authority to do so.

 

[NoMoreGames]

The Catechism was created by the church, correct? as in humans.? Why can’t it be changed? (This is an honest question, the process/history of the Catechism is something I’m not familiar with.)

 

[antonabe]

The contract of marriage form the point of view of a Christian should be viewed in the light of Scripture.There is reference to Homosexuality by St Paul and Marriage too is clearly defined from the Christian perspective as being the union of Man and Women for the purpose of Companionship and propagation.A contract between two males or two females to ensure the continuation of their Civil matters is an entirely different matter but has no relationship to marriage.In Marriage Sex plays an important role according to Scripture Sex between a man and man or a Women and Women is considered Sin and therefore Christians who believe in Scripture cannot accept same sex Marriages.The State may succumb to pressure by different groups to legalise same sex marriages but within the framework of the Christian Communinity there is no place for same sex Marriages.

 

[Kevin42]

The Catechism was created by the church, correct? as in humans.? Why can’t it be changed? (This is an honest question, the process/history of the Catechism is something I’m not familiar with.)

The catechism was created by the Church, but the sacraments and what they are were not. The sacraments were given to the Church as gifts by Jesus Christ. She has no authority to alter them. The Church does not have the authority to change the words of consecration or the type of host used (from unleavened bread to donuts, for example). She does not have the authority to change the words of baptism, or the matter of baptism from water to beer. The same holds true in the sacrament of marriage.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

First off it really bothers me how most of you say gay “marriage” second, both my boyfriend and I are very involved Catholics. We love celebrating mass together and often talk about our faith. I dint understand how, as one of the earlier posts stated, we marriage wouldn’t bring us closer to God. I try every day to follow the two most important commandments, and I honestly believe that this relationship has strengthened my faith. I’ve dated others who were not Catholic, or even Christian, and it made me realize how important is is to love God to uphold a relationship. Maybe it’s because of my perspective, but I don’t understand how gay couples couldn’t grow closer to God through the sacrament of marriage.

Hi NoMoreGames,

As a Catholic, I highly recommend you read Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II. I think it may help you understand why a homosexual union is not Marriage and why homosexual acts are a sin. As someone with attraction to the same sex, you can grow closer to God in many ways, but not Marriage, because Marriage is a Sacrament. As a Catholic, I’m sure you know what a Sacrament is. The Church can’t redefine them.

Questioning why the Sacrament of Marriage can’t include homosexual unions is the same as questioning Confession, Holy Orders, Communion, etc.

Pax Christi,
Robert

 

[JEANNIEMAC]

Mark mentions that homosexual couples generally have higher incomes than heterosexuals. My observation is that male homosexuals have a more developed corpus callosum, the bridge between the right and left hemispheres of the brain. Women have a more highly developed bridge than men.
So, it would appear that homosexuals have a double advantage of being able to think as women do, but continue to look like men. Thus, they are able to use these advantages to advance in the arts and sciences. When you think about it, homosexuals have actually usurped the place of women in society.

 

[MALACHYONE]

Hi all,
I’m from CA, where we barely got Proposition 8 (restoring the true definition of marriage) passed

Here’s where I’m in a bind: many of my friends, who are Catholic (or at least refer to themselves as such) voted against Prop 8 and are very unhappy with the results. For example, one of my friends writes as her status on Facebook, “[name of person] knows Jesus would never deny a human right & people that use the Bible to say yes on Prop 8 show their ignorance and uncompassionate heart for human rights.”

So, I’m working on ways to present what the Church teaches about marriage and homosexuality (and gay “marriage”). The primary argument against Prop 8 frames marriage as an equality and civil rights issue.

Here’s my question though: is marriage definable as a “human right”? I’m struggling to come up with a definite answer from a Catholic perspective. Also, if anyone has any general ideas for ways to explain TRUE Catholic teaching in this regard, I’d appreciate it.

I was born and reared Catholic, a former Director of Catholic Charities and I AM CERTAIN that Jesus, ie, God is just laughing at the Churches poplulist (vs intelligent) stand against Gays/Lesbians; calling them sinners etc. Let alone allowing them to marry or have civil unions.

We need big bad ol Church Administrative, Traditional and Doctrinal to keep us generally on the road vs off in left field somewhere.

But, I see God laughing at the huge chunk of wood that the Church has in its eyes blocking caring and love for our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters.

Its just silly being so policeman oriented in this matter, and also in denying communion for some. Laughing? You betcha. God is laughing saying "Look at that Big Ol Church Authoritarian down there keeping sinners from receiving me at Mass, and being singled out by a condescending belittling prayer instead.

 

[MALACHYONE]

The idea that the Church will never change its views is implanted in the minds of many Catholics and non Catholics. It is not true, but does take forever, and most of us do not have forever.

It you were born into a Catholic family who were hell bent to have a priest or nun (or in my kin’s case) or both, you may not have had a son or daughter, sibling or other close friend who is gay or lesbian.

I promise that if you do have a close loved one who is gay/lesbian, you will go to school and learn how wrong you have been about these dear ones.

Oh, I know that some are so brain washed (in and out of the Church) that they will never change or even be open for a new view. This often just borders on rightious stubborness, period.

To boycott our gay/lesbian loved ones is a hate crime, period.

No, its not ok to use the old “I love them but not their sin.”

You kill people, my friends, in more ways than abortion.

(And abortion is so wrong, but where was the Church in the last fifty years with programs and services that actually got to the youth—young men and women—who needed them.

Most priests/nuns have had little or not training and would not know how to speak with these young frightened people.)

So, even if only a couple get to read this, PLEASE QUIT KILLING OUR BELOVED GAY/LESBIANS KINFOLK with your boycotting.

You are trully breaking their hearts by your pious mouthings, and God is looking down, CRYING about this, and laughing about some of the idiocy.

 

[MALACHYONE]

As former Director of Catholic Charites, I think there is much to say for the Holy Roman Catholic Church having two doors today.

One door could be for the self acclaimed rightious, those who promulgate and love to invoke strict Church laws, to show their better ness.

The other door would be for we the people. We the ones who make mistakes and know it. We who want forgiveness but are not willing to grovel.

That divorced/remarried Catholics cannot receive communion is tragic and distancing Catholics from the Church by the score.

Anyone, the lowest in the gutter bum, should be able to receive the sacrament of communion anytime, anyplace, for any reason -----just by asking the Lord, which is entirely between the Lord and the Bum.

 

[Kevin42]

As former Director of Catholic Charites, I think there is much to say for the Holy Roman Catholic Church having two doors today.

One door could be for the self acclaimed rightious, those who promulgate and love to invoke strict Church laws, to show their better ness.

The other door would be for we the people. We the ones who make mistakes and know it. We who want forgiveness but are not willing to grovel.

**The slave is no better than the master. **

That divorced/remarried Catholics cannot receive communion is tragic and distancing Catholics from the Church by the score.
**
Anyone, the lowest in the gutter bum, should be able to receive the sacrament of communion anytime, anyplace, for any reason -----just by asking the Lord, which is entirely between the Lord and the Bum.**

St. Paul disagreed.

And forgiveness for mortal sins is readily and easily available through confession.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

As former Director of Catholic Charites, I think there is much to say for the Holy Roman Catholic Church having two doors today.

One door could be for the self acclaimed rightious, those who promulgate and love to invoke strict Church laws, to show their better ness.

The other door would be for we the people. We the ones who make mistakes and know it. We who want forgiveness but are not willing to grovel.

That divorced/remarried Catholics cannot receive communion is tragic and distancing Catholics from the Church by the score.

Anyone, the lowest in the gutter bum, should be able to receive the sacrament of communion anytime, anyplace, for any reason -----just by asking the Lord, which is entirely between the Lord and the Bum.

Do you believe that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord?

 

[PRmerger]

But, I see God laughing at the huge chunk of wood that the Church has in its eyes blocking caring and love for our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters.

You are quite mistaken if you believe that our Church advocates blocking caring and love for our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters.

 

[fix]

I was born and reared Catholic, a former Director of Catholic Charities and I AM CERTAIN that Jesus, ie, God is just laughing at the Churches poplulist (vs intelligent) stand against Gays/Lesbians; calling them sinners etc. Let alone allowing them to marry or have civil unions.

We need big bad ol Church Administrative, Traditional and Doctrinal to keep us generally on the road vs off in left field somewhere.

But, I see God laughing at the huge chunk of wood that the Church has in its eyes blocking caring and love for our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters.

Its just silly being so policeman oriented in this matter, and also in denying communion for some. Laughing? You betcha. God is laughing saying "Look at that Big Ol Church Authoritarian down there keeping sinners from receiving me at Mass, and being singled out by a condescending belittling prayer instead.

Are you the authority?

 

[MALACHYONE]

No, Marriage is not a right. Marriage is a sacrament. A gift from God to help us come in closer union to him. Since same-sex couples cannot come closer to God through any type of union with each other, they could never obtain a valid Marriage.

Government has nothing to do with your sacraments, or anyone elses. Government doesn’t single out anyone’s rellgious beliefs as making marriage or anything else ok or not ok.
Thats why its called government and not the Catholic Church or some other church that wants their beliefs forced upon us all.

Same sex couples come closer to God with a marriage? Are you just a child or not too bright? You should be honored that homosexuals with to marry, using you and your ilk as models.
Sounds like something a priest or religious would say;’ knowing nothing whatsoever from personal experience about marriage.

Heterosexual marriages fail at a much greater than 50 %; Closer to God you say. Closer to the Devil I’d day. Many who are miserable in marriages out there right now would never get a divorce for fear of what the neighbors would say or they couldn’t go to communion. Duh. They hate their marriage and partner, but stay together.

I am not patient with the bigoted posters; their is knowledge out there and they only have to seek it. Shrouded in religious comments, they do not even know they are bigots and are encouraging the heterosexual killers that murdered the Shepard boy.

There is, my religious friends, more ways to kill a person than abortion; this is one example and another is Bush wars.

 

[fix]

I love the appeal to “personal experience” as if subjective experience, no matter much effort is used to form one’s conscience, is superior to objective truth.

Sounds very much like an adolescent seeking to prove their bad behavior must be accepted simply because they insist and really like doing it.