Question about Hell and Catholic Miracles

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I am an Episcopalian and came to believe strongly in christianity for the first time when I heard of Lourdes, Fatima, and saints such as Solanus Casey. I have been thinking of following the Catholic church or maybe becoming catholic. However, I am perplexed over the differences in Catholic teaching on hell and miracles and visions that relate to hell and wonder if anyone can help me make sense of it.

First, my belief about Catholics official teaching on hell is that it is what Bishop Barron says in youtube videos.

But, it seems that Fatima suggests hell is a punishing place of eternal torment. And it seems visions from St. Teresa of Ávila or St. John Bosco that I have read about suggests the same. But at the same time, they say sinners prefer hell? I don’t see how sinners prefer the hell shown to the children at Fatima or shown to Teresa of Ávila?

Even more bothersome is that Fr. Maniyangat said he had a vision that many Bishops and priests are in hell. It seems that god is healing the sick through him, which seems to give him some credibility.

Furthermore, I listen to pod casts from Father Mike Schmitz and like what he says a lot. But, sometimes he makes it sound like everyone in Minnesota is going to hell for being to nice.

How have Catholics reconciled all this? Are these visions of hell just non-literal allegories? Even at Fatima? How can Popes teach that hell is a just state of being and not a place when Fatima says otherwise? Is Bishop Barron delusional? Are people lying?
 
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gaulle said:
But, it seems that Fatima suggests hell is a punishing place of eternal torment.
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Hell certainly is a real place of punishment which at the very least Satan and all the other demons are experiencing right now.
gaulle said:
But at the same time, they say sinners prefer hell?
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Yes, it has been said that sinners prefer being in hell because existing is better than not existing.
gaulle said:
Are these visions of hell just non-literal allegories? Even at Fatima?
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Any vision of hell is going to be allegorical to some extent. Hell is a place of great torment and punishment, but to a degree we are unable to comprehend. The pains of hell are often expressed by flames because being burned alive is one of the most painful experiences we can imagine. That doesn’t mean there is literal fire in hell or that we have to believe there is.
gaulle said:
Even more bothersome is that Fr. Maniyangat said he had a vision that many Bishops and priests are in hell.
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We don’t have to interpret visions of bishops and priests in hell as meaning there actually are any in hell; at the very least such visions are a warning that bishops and priests can go to hell.
gaulle said:
How can Popes teach that hell is a just state of being and not a place when Fatima says otherwise?
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A good answer from Tim Staples:
Hell is primarily a state of being, but inasmuch as the souls there will have bodies after the resurrection of the dead, they will have location as well. So, in that sense, we can say Hell is a “place.”
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gaulle said:
Is Bishop Barron delusional? Are people lying?
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If I am correct Bishop Barron is of the opinion that universal salvation is likely and that no one is actually suffering in hell. This doesn’t contradict any Church teachings since the Church has never declared you have to believe any human being actually is in hell. However, the Church does teach that people can go to hell for dying with just one unrepented mortal sin on their soul. But as to whether anyone actually has died with mortal sin on their soul, we don’t know.

Catholics may also hold the opinion that there actually are people in hell or even that most people go to hell because the Church has made no official pronouncements on how many people, if any, go to hell.

What Catholics are required to believe and agree upon is the core teaching that all human beings who die in a state of mortal sin, if there are such human beings, can and will go to hell.
 
Start first with the Catechism to see what the Church teaches about Hell.

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.

To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.

Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”

The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny.

They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.
 
We have no idea what Hell is like, except that it is the absence of God and therefore awful. We don’t know whether it is hot and fiery or cold and icy or painful or dark or depressing or some of all of the above. We only know it is miserable.

We know that sinners put themselves in Hell because if they sincerely reached out at the moment of their death to the mercy of God, He would have saved them. People in Hell get there by rejecting God and His mercy.

Private revelations like Fatima are not part of the deposit of faith and Catholics are not bound to believe them. Thus, there is no need for the Church to reconcile different visions of Hell. If you read a lot of private revelations, you’ll see it’s normal for mystics to see or experience the same thing (such as Hell, or the Crucifixion of Christ) in different ways.

No one, or at least no one on earth, has exact knowledge of who is and is not in Hell. Having said that, it would not be a surprise if some clergy were in Hell, since Hell contains some of every profession and clergy may be held to a higher standard by God according to some saints and mystics.
 
To be deep in the doctrine of hell is to cease to be Christian.
 
You are on the right track, keep going. The problem is, over the last 50+ years some major changes have crept into the local dioceses which is leading some of today’s theologians in the wrong direction. These theologians may certainly mean well, but they have learned from some incorrect books. Stick with Fatima and all Catholic resources before Vatican II and you will not run into these apparent contradictions.
 
gaulle said:
at the same time, they say sinners prefer hell
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Someone said Satan prefers to reign in hell rather than serve in heaven. Ultimately it is a mystery… the soul may reach a point of hardening where there is no turning back, a total rejection of God.
 
Do you have a catechism? Excellent place to start and to finish. Clear explanations, along with the reasoning behind them.
 
gaulle said:
But, it seems that Fatima suggests hell is a punishing place of eternal torment. And it seems visions from St. Teresa of Ávila or St. John Bosco that I have read about suggests the same. But at the same time, they say sinners prefer hell? I don’t see how sinners prefer the hell shown to the children at Fatima or shown to Teresa of Ávila?
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The Bible also suggests that there is a Hell, a place of eternal torment.
 
gaulle said:
Even more bothersome is that Fr. Maniyangat said he had a vision that many Bishops and priests are in hell. It seems that god is healing the sick through him, which seems to give him some credibility.
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Everyone must stand before God and give an account of themselves, even the great and the powerful. .
 
gaulle said:
How have Catholics reconciled all this? Are these visions of hell just non-literal allegories? Even at Fatima? How can Popes teach that hell is a just state of being and not a place when Fatima says otherwise? Is Bishop Barron delusional? Are people lying?
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Hell exists and it is a place I don’t want to go to.
 
One detail; Although Hell exists and it is a place I don’t want to go to, the Catholic Church makes no declaration as to who is in Hell. the declarations are from private revelations and it is possible that the visionary is mistaken or has a wild imagination.
The only people the Catholic church has declared to be anywhere definitively are when the saints are canonized.
 
Re: the Church stating that hell is a state of being and Fatima says:

The church has said that Fatima is worthy of belief. no one is bound to believe it, and the Church holds that Revelation ended with the last Apostle, so Fatima is not providing any new Revelation.

Spirits have no body. Their bodies are still in their graves, so if Fatima showed bodies in hell, it has to be something other than some sort of supernatural movie, bodies writhing in pain. The “vision” according to the children was experienced, but the children were not transported to some region in or out of space. What they were shown was something they could comprehend (how does one see a spirit, which has no body?) and could then convey. Allegory may not be the correct word; let’s just leave it as “vision”.

Sinners prefer the absence of God (which is another way of saying hell). Hell is one of the multitude of mysteries of the faith - how can someone prefer the absence of God? They do it by making themself a god; they are the deity; they choose to be self centered rather than other centered. They choose hate instead of love. Christ calls us to be “other centered” - “other” being Christ, God, and our fellow man.

And then coupled with that is that mystery of free will.

I have no clue who Fr. Maniyangat is, and have no idea if his vision(s) have been approved by the Church. If they have not, you may want to spend your time elsewhere; there is a plethora of alternatives. And even if they have been, they are not required belief.

People are not lying. sometimes they are mistaken; sometimes poorly catechized on a matter; and sometimes they are doing their best to convey a mystery. Bishop Barron has his head tied on tight and square. I really like him.
 
It kind of makes sense since there isn’t really a way for them to communicate the fact that they are in hell in the way that saints can use miracles to prove that they are in Heaven.
 
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otjm said:
I have no clue who Fr. Maniyangat is, and have no idea if his vision(s) have been approved by the Church
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Fr. Maniyangat is a priest from Kerala who is active in the charismatic movement and has a healing ministry. While serving as a priest in Kerala, he had a near-fatal motorcycle accident, was pronounced dead for some time, and had a subsequent NDE during which he says he saw heaven, hell and purgatory before being instructed by Jesus to go back to the world and continue his ministry there. He recovered (somewhat miraculously, according to his story) from his serious injuries and later transferred to the USA where he was assigned to a number of parishes before resigning with his bishop’s permission to take on a full-time healing ministry. He now tours the US and elsewhere saying Mass at various churches and performing his healing ministry.

His visions are unlikely to ever get official approval as NDEs generally don’t. I would just put them in the category of private revelation and you can believe them or not. Other people might claim a scientific explanation for NDE.
However, given that Fr. Maniyangat is permitted by the bishop to continue with his current priestly activities, he is likely sincere in his belief about what he saw during the time he was temporarily “dead”.
 
Hi. Not sure why this discussion-thread has ended up in the ‘Traditional Catholic’ category.

A relevant Catholic question.

While it could be deduced that certain people are in Hell, we cannot judge, ultimately, because we do not know if people have repented at the last minute.

I would not involve myself in the writings of people who go even as far as mentioning categories of people who are in Hell (nurses, doctors, teachers, families, politicians, Religious) because that too could be considered judgemental. It ends up sounding like something coming from the The Divine Comedy. And not all people who have ‘religious experiences’ are necessarily meant to reveal them.

Private revelations recorded as having come from saints, normally, as far as I know, are not attempts at providing names of individuals or people-groups serving in various areas of life, as being in Hell; rather, the mystic will state the kind of life that can lead to Hell. Any writings of saints, before being revealed to the public, had to be certified as being good to reveal, by the Church.

We have been given help throughout Salvation History with visits by the Blessed Mother - people can choose to ignore the good advice so offered. It is the case, that people who are not Catholics can go to Heaven, and yet the path is narrow and therefore being a Christian certainly increases the likelihood, and so the requirement for converting, and conversion, never ceases to be relevant.

People have suggested the Catechism as a resource and I believe that this is essential as it gives to us a solid base upon which our understanding can grow in the various truths of the Catholic faith.
 
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Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. That all makes a lot more sense. Since I don’t know any Catholics or believers for that matter, I am often lost trying to put interpretations together. Without books by N.T. Wright and Peter Kreeft I wouldn’t know anything. Sad thing is I went to grad school at Boston College for 5 years and never thought to ask these questions or learn about Catholicism.
 
Hi. Although the category term is an odd one, I would say, according to the kind of discussions that are presented in it, that ‘spirituality’ is possibly the closest topic-section. The ‘Traditional Catholic’ area is for those who love with particular attention the extraordinary form of the Mass, as far as I am aware. Thanks.
 
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