Question about hell

[mcrow]

It depends on what you mean by repent. The Church teaches that mortal sins can be forgiven by perfect contrition. The saints have generally taught that perfect contrition is difficult. That is why the sacrament of penance was instituted by Christ. If it were easy to obtain forgiveness then there would be no need for the sacrament of penance.

Except that it is not the case that we can only guess at what God would do. He has revealed through his Church what is necessary for salvation.

God wants all people to be saved, but He refuses to impose upon the free will He gave us. We cannot be saved unless we want to be saved and then actually do everything necessary for salvation.

OK, let’s not delve into a picking nits competition here. Generally speaking when a Catholic says repent it means through the proper course of pennance and canfession.

I think you are wrong in the second part. Yes, God has revealed to us the way to salvation but it does not mean that we there are not exceptions. God can do what he wants, far be it for me and my comparitively tiny brain (compared to His) say that I know with 100% certaintly the fate of anyone who commits any particular sin. Granted, I think we know the outcome for the vast majority of people who do certain things but I wouldn’t pretend to know God’s mind on everythign either.

 

[wasserfall]

I get that idea from the Church. The Church recommends that everyone goes to confession at least once a year. The Pope goes once a week. We all know that venial sin can be purged in purgatory, but if mortal sin cannot be purged in purgatory, then why isn’t the Church recommending daily confession?

Most good Catholics don’t commit mortal sin daily.

According to my examination of conscience sheet, “driving recklessly” is a mortal sin. If it is this easy to commit a mortal sin, then how can anyone get into Heaven?

Driving recklessly is an example of something that could be a mortal sin under some circumstances, but usually isn’t.

There has to be a way to atone for mortal sin other than confession.

Why is that? Confession IS the easy way.

I assume that it isn’t as “easy” as being the biggest sinner on earth and then being truly sorry when you die.

It is not easy to be truly sorry after living a whole life wallowing in sin. It may be easy to fear hell when you are on your deathbed, but not easy to be truly sorry.

I assume that if you are a follower of Jesus and you followed his teachings to the best of your ability and by all accounts were a “good Catholic” you should get into Heaven.

If you don’t regularly commit mortal sins and do regularly go to confession, then you will most likely go to Heaven. That’s what it means to be a good Catholic (although actually a truly good Catholic would never commit a mortal sin).

My concern is that when I see a statement in the CCC that seems cut and dry on the subject, I wonder if I had been lead astray.

If only the entire CCC were as cut and dry, we might have fewer confused people!

 

[constantconvert]

Do not forget that it must be

• a grave matter
• with full knowledge
• and complete consent

The way that I read that, it must mean that there is a rebellion so great that we revel in carrying out the sin. In other words, in your scenario:

• you would play golf on Sunday instead of going to Mass, even though he gave His life for you, and is going to be offering Himself in the Blessed Eucharist
• You understand completely that it deeply offends and grieves the Holy and Loving heart of God
• You do not give a two cents, that He is grieved. You thumb your nose at God, and could not care less.

This is only my very layman’s understanding, so I believe that there are fewer mortal sins committed than we might think. But yes, if this is what went on in your heart, and in your heart you trampled the Eucharist to play a round of gold, then that would be a mortal sin. Barring the exceptions that have already been mentioned (ie confession before death, perfect contrition, etc.) you might be on your way to hell.

 

[Dannel11]

If you don’t regularly commit mortal sins and do regularly go to confession, then you will most likely go to Heaven. That’s what it means to be a good Catholic (although actually a truly good Catholic would never commit a mortal sin).

…

If only the entire CCC were as cut and dry, we might have fewer confused people!

That is what gets me about this. The CCC is supposed to be the go to guide, but I hear you and others say that you are human and you will make mistakes, do your best and be as free of sin as possible and you should be good to go… but then you turn around and say that the CCC is cut and dry on the subject.

It can’t be both. Either the CCC is correct (one unforgiven mortal sin and it’s hell time) or common sense is correct (God is merciful and good God fearing people are judged by the entirety of their actions, not just their last one). It just seems counter-intuitive for God to say “You were good all your life. Too bad you died before you had a chance to visit the confessional.”

 

[Iron_Donkey]

It can’t be both. Either the CCC is correct (one unforgiven mortal sin and it’s hell time) or common sense is correct (God is merciful and good God fearing people are judged by the entirety of their actions, not just their last one). It just seems counter-intuitive for God to say “You were good all your life. Too bad you died before you had a chance to visit the confessional.”

I think you are thinking of this as a points game. Being good scores good points and being bad scores bad points or somesuch.

Think of it rather as a light switch. When it’s on, you are in a state of friendships with God and would freely choose Him as He has chosen you upon death. When it’s off, you are in a state opposed to God, of preferring yourself to Him and even if given the option would not join with God in heaven.

Baptism switches it on. Confession and perfect contrition switch it on.

Mortal sin switches it off. This is what defines mortal sin. This is what “grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of will” mean. It means that knowing very well what you were doing and knowing that it was directly opposed to what God wants, you still choose of your own free will to act as though your own desires are the more important than Love, than Truth, than God. You reach out and switch it off. You consciously choose to reject God for yourself. You choose, in fact, Hell. Now, you may not have chosen Hell in the sense of saying “I want to be miserable for the rest of eternity,” but you have rejected and discarded God’s friendship saying that you prefer your own path to God’s and do not want to be united with Him. Separation from God is Hell.

This is what mortal sin is. A person who dies in such a situation would not go to heaven if given the choice, because going to heaven means joining in perfect union with God and this person exists in a state that does not desire that union.

Mortal sin leads to Hell. One mortal sin. This is the definition of Mortal Sin. That is why, in fact, it is called “Mortal” and not just “slightly more annoying than venial”. It is deadly.

We cannot turn the switch back on ourselves. But God can. And He offers to do so. And we ordinarily accept this offer through confession or perfect contrition. But God is God, and if He knows that we would accept this offer through ordinary means if we could but we are prevented from doing so, then He can allow us to accept this offer through extra-ordinary means.

But they are not ordinary. They cannot be counted on. If they could be counted on, then they’d be ordinary.

The take away is to avoid mortal sin like you would avoid death because it is in fact death. When we sin anyway, use the ordinary means to flip the switch back on and go back to avoiding sin like death. And hope and pray that should you die with the switch off but wanting it back on, that God will extend the extra ordinary ways.

But while we can hope and pray, we cannot demand. God is God, and by very definition one mortal sin is enough that we deserve Hell. Anything else is God’s mercy and should be cherished as a gift, not demanded or expected as a right.

 

[Dannel11]

I think you are thinking of this as a points game. Being good scores good points and being bad scores bad points or somesuch.

Not really. I’m thinking that if the score is 1 mortal sin that just happened prior to death before confession then according to the CCC and many in this thread, the game is over and you go to hell; even if it was your first and only mortal sin.

That doesn’t seem very kind and loving to me, which is why it makes no sense to me. A lonely widow succumbs to temptation, fornicates with a man, and dies of a heart attack during the act. According to the CCC, she goes to hell. One moment of weakness and she goes to hell?

That is what I can’t wrap my mind around. A God that asked Peter to forgive his brother 7 x 70 times is not willing to forgive once you die? You have to be alive to get forgiveness?

But I guess I am beating a dead horse here. The consensus in this post is that the CCC is correct and the best we can hope for is that God makes an exception for us if we find ourselves in this situation.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

That is what I can’t wrap my mind around. A God that asked Peter to forgive his brother 7 x 70 times is not willing to forgive once you die? You have to be alive to get forgiveness?

No, the whole point is that is that you must be restored to a state of grace. It is not that God is unwilling to forgive, it’s that the person who has died does not want to join with God. He is opposed. The forgiveness is offered. It simply must be accepted.

But “oh crud, I don’t want to go to hell” isn’t exactly the life changing realign yourself with God, I accept that I am completely wrong and He is completely right and therefore accept His forgiveness and offer to restore me to a state of friendship with him sort of thing here. It’s not, by itself, sufficient. It’s not really seeking true union with God, it’s just seeking good for self. It is in no way bad, it just isn’t what is needed to make true union with God something you would want to do. That kind of contrition requires sacramental help, or action by God outside of the sacraments. It’s not that it would be nice. It’s that such action is logically REQUIRED.

That’s why I wrote a rather lengthy post trying to explain the what’s going on - it’s more than whether or not God minds, it’s how YOU are disposed towards God.

 

[Dannel11]

No, the whole point is that is that you must be restored to a state of grace.

I’m with you so far. This is what purgatory is for. To purify your soul so you can enter heaven.

It is not that God is unwilling to forgive, it’s that the person who has died does not want to join with God. He is opposed.

Now you lost me. How does human weakness = not want to join with God? That is like equating skipping a class with not wanting to be in college anymore.

The forgiveness is offered. It simply must be accepted.

Are you saying that we can be forgiven after death? If so, do you know where that is in the CCC?

it’s how YOU are disposed towards God.

But that isn’t what the CCC says. It says if you die in a state of mortal sin then you go to hell. Are you saying that if you truly desire to be one with God but just messed up and are truly remorseful, then what you did is not really considered a mortal sin because it didn’t change your disposition towards God?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I’m with you so far. This is what purgatory is for. To purify your soul so you can enter heaven.

No, purgatory is something else entirely. Purgatory is for people who are in a state of grace. The broken window analogy is a good one. Purgatory is a good scrubbing before you walk through the door, being restored to a state of grace is making it so that there is something worth scrubbing the dirt off.

Now you lost me. How does human weakness = not want to join with God? That is like equating skipping a class with not wanting to be in college anymore.

In the college example, committing a mortal sin would and claiming to still want to be united with God is like spending all of your time partying and getting drunk, never going to class, and never studying, yet claiming that your highest priority is really to do college right.

This is simply and obviously not the case. It may be that you have some weak desire to do it right, or it may be that you want a degree, but it is simply not your highest priority - your highest priority is clearly partying. Again, you may very well want on some level to be studious, but you simply aren’t being so, wants aside.

Are you saying that we can be forgiven after death? If so, do you know where that is in the CCC?

Not as such. From what I understand we are set in whatever state we are in at death for eternity. I could be wrong about that, but I don’t believe so. But God could easily, if He so desired, return us to a state of grace at the moment of our death or immediately before it.

But that isn’t what the CCC says. It says if you die in a state of mortal sin then you go to hell. [no argument from me there, but being in a state of mortal sin is the same thing as being ill-disposed towards God in the sense that I mean or lacking a state of grace] Are you saying that if you truly desire to be one with God but just messed up and are truly remorseful, then what you did is not really considered a mortal sin because it didn’t change your disposition towards God?

Sort of. I’m saying all that matters is the state of grace, which can be described as that desire and which leads to a couple statements like the italicized one (it partially depends on what exactly you mean by remorseful):

First: you can commit an actual mortal sin and hence lose the state of grace and then recover this state via perfect contrition before going to confession (sorrow based primarily on love of God), in which case you are no longer in a state of mortal sin (though the obligation to go to confession remains) and will not go to Hell upon dying since you are now in a state of grace.

Second: you can commit a mortal sin and hence lose your state of grace and then God may choose to use extraordinary means to restore you to a state of grace. I would imagine that he would take things like desire to go to confession and imperfect contrition into account, but again if I had a formula for this I wouldn’t be calling it extraordinary. God is not bound to work only within the sacraments, we simply know that He will work within them because He has promised to do so.

Third: that you may have committed a sin that had the potential to be a mortal sin but was not because of your interior disposition at the time (confusion over the gravity, failure to realize what exactly you were doing, coercion, etc), hence never fell from a state of grace. This is likely to result primarily from confusion. A straight up decision to do what you want and who cares what God wants does not fall into this category. (Likewise, it is possible to commit a mortal sin and then later convince yourself that you haven’t).

That last is the closest I can get to what you seem to be trying to describe - a mortal sin in which you don’t really “mean it,” as it were. The whole point of a mortal sin though is that you do mean it.

 

[Dannel11]

In the college example, committing a mortal sin would and claiming to still want to be united with God is like spending all of your time partying and getting drunk, never going to class, and never studying, yet claiming that your highest priority is really to do college right.

Correct, but in my example, you only skipped one class. It is easy to understand that blatant and repeated disregard of Gods law leads to hell, which is why a lot of counter examples in this thread keep trumping up the level of sin. I think my problem is I tried to simplify things too much in my original question. Here is what I’m getting at:

Think of your life like a timeline where the color of the line reflects you current state of grace. The line is white for perfect grace and black for a state of mortal sin where you would not get into heaven. It is easy to see that at any given point in your life, your state of grace may be pure white (e.g. just after baptism), varying shades of grey, or pitch black. One you commit sin, the severity of the sin you commit determines how much black is applied to the line. For example, if your line is pure white and you commit venial sin, your line turns a little grey. Venial sin leads to mortal sin and you line gets darker, once you obtain the attitude of unrepentant disregard for Gods law, your line turns black. If you die when your line is grey, purgatory makes your line white again. If you die when your line if black, you go to hell.

I think this analogy encapsulates the teaching of the Church. Perhaps the CCC is right when they say “state of mortal sin” because they are referring to the line being black. That is the question I am trying to get answered. Does the CCC mean if your line is anything but pure white you are going to hell, or does it say that if your line is black you are going to hell. I think it is saying the latter. Do you concur?

 

[1ke]

Does the CCC mean if your line is anything but pure white you are going to hell, or does it say that if your line is black you are going to hell. I think it is saying the latter. Do you concur?

If “black” = mortal sin, then yes.

But, it just takes one mortal sin. Mortal is mortal. The word mortal means deadly, deadly to your soul. If you die in mortal sin, you go to Hell.

 

[constantconvert]

Now you lost me. How does human weakness = not want to join with God? That is like equating skipping a class with not wanting to be in college anymore.

But mortal sin isn’t human weakness. It’s not an accident, or a slip, or a mistake. It’s a 100% full knowing and not caring about what God wants. It’s a full on rejection of God because it has to be a grave matter, with full consent, and full knowledge (please read my explanation above)

 

[Dannel11]

But, it just takes one mortal sin.

There is that hard line again. I don’t understand it. That is like saying someone who is an alcoholic that fell off the wagon or a teenager that masturbated is on equal footing as someone who committed premeditated murder or apostasy.

How can this be the case? Why is it so black and white?

 

[Dannel11]

But mortal sin isn’t human weakness. It’s not an accident, or a slip, or a mistake. It’s a 100% full knowing and not caring about what God wants. It’s a full on rejection of God because it has to be a grave matter, with full consent, and full knowledge (please read my explanation above)

I agree with this statement. It seems my question will boil down to what exactly is the definition of mortal sin. It seems that many people in this thread think it is a single act of rule breaking. Whereas yourself and I, (correct me if I’m wrong) seem believe it is an attitude of blatant disregard for God’s law.

Which means, if a teenager masturbates because they are a teenager, as long as they know it is wrong and try to suppress those urges and intend to confess and atone for those sins, then they are not committing mortal sin. However, if they continue to give into temptation to the point where they no longer feel guilty, they are in a state of mortal sin. Is this correct?

 

[constantconvert]

I agree with this statement. It seems my question will boil down to what exactly is the definition of mortal sin. It seems that many people in this thread think it is a single act of rule breaking. Whereas yourself and I, (correct me if I’m wrong) seem believe it is an attitude of blatant disregard for God’s law.

Which means, if a teenager masturbates because they are a teenager, as long as they know it is wrong and try to suppress those urges and intend to confess and atone for those sins, then they are not committing mortal sin. However, if they continue to give into temptation to the point where they no longer feel guilty, they are in a state of mortal sin. Is this correct?

Yes. The form mortal sin takes, that is the action of the sin itself-- ie fornication, missing mass, etc, is a secondary concern (don’t get me wrong, it is a grave concern, but not the primary concern). The primary concern of mortal sin is that you are wholly rejecting God, and it doesn’t bother you a whit.

If when you commit sin you say as Paul said in Romans 7 “The good I want to do I do not, but the evil I do not want, that I keep doing” then you are not committing mortal sin, even if it is a grave sin, because you do not do it with full consent and full knowledge. At least one of the necessary criterion is missing.

This in no way excuses sin-- we should not presume upon God’s grace as that too can kill the conscience.

 

[Dannel11]

Yes. The form mortal sin takes, that is the action of the sin itself-- ie fornication, missing mass, etc, is a secondary concern (don’t get me wrong, it is a grave concern, but not the primary concern). The primary concern of mortal sin is that you are wholly rejecting God, and it doesn’t bother you a whit.

This helped me immensely and makes complete sense. Thank you!

 

[1ke]

There is that hard line again. I don’t understand it.

And I don’t understand how you cannot understand how terrible sin is and how it destroys our soul and offends God.

That is like saying someone who is an alcoholic that fell off the wagon or a teenager that masturbated is on equal footing as someone who committed premeditated murder or apostasy.

I think you have been influenced by the culture into believing that sins that are grave really aren’t. There are a lot of people out there who want to believe contraception, homosexuality, fornication, etc, aren’t really that bad, they can’t really be sins, they can’t really offend God.

That is not the truth.

however, I do not agree that your examples are necessarily examples of mortal sin. They are examples of objectively grave matter.

How can this be the case? Why is it so black and white?

Because sin is a terrible offense against God. God hates sin. When we deliberately sin against God, we reject his grace and separate ourselves from him.

 

[1ke]

Which means, if a teenager masturbates because they are a teenager, as long as they know it is wrong and try to suppress those urges and intend to confess and atone for those sins, then they are not committing mortal sin. However, if they continue to give into temptation to the point where they no longer feel guilty, they are in a state of mortal sin. Is this correct?

No, not really. Whether or not one “feels guilty” has no bearing on whether or not one committed a mortal sin.

 

[constantconvert]

No, not really. Whether or not one “feels guilty” has no bearing on whether or not one committed a mortal sin.

I think it does have some bearing on mortal sin under the condition of full consent.

Maybe first we need do define what feeling guilty means. If you feel bad that you know you have offended God, in other words godly sorrow. I’m not defining it as feeling sorry that you got caught, or that you’re going to be punished. Let’s call it feeling *true *guilt.

If you are consenting to something fully, you wouldn’t feel guilty about it. I don’t think, as a general rule, you can feel guilty about a sin you are committing and say you consented fully. Full consent, to my mind would mean that you were reveling in that sin, and didn’t care whether it offended God or not. That is a sign of a dead soul, is it not?

 

[steve_b]

CCC 1035 states:

Lets say I am a Catholic and the following happens:

1. • I go to confession on Saturday
   • Do my penance
   • Purposely miss Church on Sunday to go golfing
   • Die on Monday
   According to the CCC, I would go to hell. This does not sound right to me.
   
   I thought that as long as you were baptized and believed that Jesus was your Lord and Savior, that you would burn off sin in purgatory.
   
   Can someone explain this to me?
   
   Thank you!

1. 
   Where do you suppose the CCC got that teaching?
   
   Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
   23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins*,* 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
   
   one will ask
   
   By deliberately failing to meet on Sunday (the Day) as is the habit of some
   • why is deliberately failing to meet on Sunday, already considered a very serious sin worthy of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries
   • why is there no sacrifice for sins as a result of deliberately failing to meet.
   • why is ther a profaning of the blood of the covenant for deliberately failing to meet
   • why does it spurn the son of God and outrage the spirit of grace
   To answer that
   • What is the sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant ? It’s the Eucharist. The summit of our faith. Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus the son of God said those words instituting the Eucharist. Jesus further describes the importance of the Eucharist for the soul. Jn 6:53 unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you*. 54* Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Life of the soul is grace.
   Therefore, the one who deliberately misses the Eucharist on Sunday, after being given the knowledge of truth,
   • no sacrifice for sin is left for THEM
   • they profane the blood of the covenant
   • they spurn the son of God & outrage the spirit of grace
   • judgment awaits them
   That’s how important the Eucharist is. And by definition, it describes a mortal sin