Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[ETE]

Please give me more source information. All that google keeps pulling up is this thread.

Personally, I would love five or six unconnected sources with scholarly citations that I can verify.

New Catholic Encyclopedia v13 Nihil obstat: John P Whalen M.A.S.T.D., Censor Deputatus: Imprimatur: Patrick A. O’Boyle, D.D. Illinois: Jack Heraty & Associates, Inc. 1967

"To ask whether the NT presents Jesus as God the Son is to inquire about his consubstantiality and seek a frame of reference for him that was developed only later".

Take note: This are but written history and not legend.

 

[ETE]

Idol worship is prohibited in the Old and New Testaments.

I see, then Catholic Church violated God’s commandments right?

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

Once the word worship appears and applies to images, the person himself is an idol/image worshiper.

John wrote his Gospel to counter Cerenthius and Ebion who were against the divinity of our Lord. And you sided with these heretics.

You cannot read in any letter of John implying Jesus deity nor in a straight forward manner of statements saying JESUS IS GOD, and why not if Jesus is God? That’s obvious right?

Secondly, YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION…

to whom and where does those teachings came from? Christians to be an IMAGE WORSHIPERS? For sure Jesus and his Apostles did not teach that…right?

Did John write the Christians to be an image/idol worshipers?

That is what I want you to prove, because SAVAGE WOLVES and FALSE TEACHERS is no longer a legend…they are real people in the church…and they will bring DESTRUCTIVE UNTRUE DOCTRINES.

Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

 

[ETE]

These are talking about the people who went against the Church.They did not listened to the teachings of the bishops, who received their teachings from the Apostles, who received their teachings from our Lord. That is why the Apostles told them to stand firm to the Traditions that were given them, so they may be able to stand against the destructive doctrines of the heretics.
Jesus set up the Church as His body, Christ is the head and we are His body.
Jesus said to his apostles, “As the Father sent me, so I send you” and “He who hears you, hears me.” **Listening to the **Church is listening to Christ because the Church has Christ’s mission. That mission is what we call the great commission.
I

Ferdi, you are not paying attention to my questions.

Who commanded the Catholics to worship images?

The heretics that left the church? or the church itself?

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Ferdi, you are not paying attention to my questions.

Who commanded the Catholics to worship images?

The heretics that left the church? or the church itself?

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

Buddy, you need to look up the defn of worship before you talk.

 

[ETE]

The problem with INCs is that they think God is stupid. They think that God is unable to distinguish between pious respect and worship.

And who is the God who gave you the go signal to respect, bows down and worship images in behalf of God?

Your wife can do that to you right? To sleep with another man on your behalf…and that is perfectly okay with you?

May I used your words…“They think that God is unable to distinguish between pious respect and worship”

Tsk.

 

[ETE]

ETE,

we have to agree with what idol worship is to begin with. Then we have to ask who does that and how widespread it is and if it is a prescribed part of the religion. I can tell you as a Catholic that i do not worship idols, nor do any Catholics i know. and as far as i am aware, it is against my religion to do so. that on the other hand does not mean that all Catholics adhere to that.
In olden times idol worship meant that statues had special powers and divinity within them. In parts of Africa this is still the case. Perhaps some parts of the Philippines go overboard with their local parish statues, but that is most definitely not Catholicism if they do so. I have lived in the Philippines before and i know that some Catholics do emotionally attach themselves to statues and it is borderline sometimes as idol worship - such as with Santo Nino in Cebu and other local parishes. But the vast majority of Catholics in the Philippines, and even more prevalent outside the Philippines do not look at statues as embodying any divinty. Where i now practice as a Catholic, idols are so not part of the culture that we speak figuratively about ‘money’, ‘power’ and ‘prestige’ as being our modern days idols that we shouldn’t worship.

So i would say that idol worship is not part of the Catholic Church.
From my perspective.

Peace be with you.

If those Catholics do not WORSHIP IMAGES or IDOLS made by hand…then those Catholics are HERETICS cause they disobeys Catholic Church doctrines is it not? And you know the punishment for such heretics on the time of inquisition, DEATH!

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

Did God allow such blasphemous acts?

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth;** You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,** visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

CURSE is upon the man who worship idols.

 

[ETE]

ETE,

you say that the original Christianity did not have Christ as divine.
You sight history and the scriptures for your case.
Catholics sight history, scriptures and the Church for theirs.
Of course you claim that the church must have apostised.

OK, fair enough ETE, you read it a certain way and that is what makes sense to you.

From my perspective i read it a different way although i respect your right to see it differently.

I don’t agree with everything in the following link but the first part regarding Christs divinity makes a good case from scriptures.

ucg.org.au/booklets/JC.pdf

I’ll make it simple my friend…“apostasy” means FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH or from the doctrine of Jesus and his Apostles.

To disprove that apostasy NEVER HAPPENED, is to prove Image and idol worship was being practiced by Jesus, the Apostles and the first century Christians…if not, then from where, and from whom is the IMAGE WORSHIP came from?

I don’t think there is any need to ‘invent’ it afterwards. I don’t see a place historically after the apostles where it was ‘invented’ and i think the scriptures are clear enough (for me).

325AD is the first historical event where JESUS BECAME OFFICIALLY GOD, but before that time he was NOT [officially from 110AD till 325AD]…or else why proclaimed an article of Faith that JESUS IS GOD if that article of faith was existing? That doesn’t make any sense, even if millions arose against that doctrines but if it exist, no proclamation is needed due to its existence from the time of Jesus much more from the OT.

But why make a proclamation as an ARTICLE OF FAITH that JESUS IS GOD?

The answer is so simple…it did not exist before 110AD and beyond.

I am happy to accept that and respect your right to see it differently. We of course each think the other is incorrect.

Of course there is the whole question of whether Christ founded a church or not with authority. I again answer affirmative to that from my understanding. If you see it differently then, of course, i will again, respect that.

Peace be with you.

Mine is simple logic and common sense. If I put my destiny at stake, then I will look at all angles of doctrines, cause it is a lifetime condemnation or salvation is at stake…and no turning back once it happened. That is how man should perceived such.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

325AD is the first historical event where JESUS BECAME OFFICIALLY GOD, but before that time he was NOT [officially from 110AD till 325AD]…or else why proclaimed an article of Faith that JESUS IS GOD if that article of faith was existing?

I think you need to really sit down and think this one over…

What did St. Thomas say after the Ressurection?

“My Lord and my God”

 

[ETE]

Yeah, in case you didn’t know, Christians have ALWAYS belived in the divinity of Christ.

So if you don’t believe that, like the Mormons, you are being intellectually dishonest if you call yourself a “Christian”

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

You mean Christians after 110AD? History tells us that it started on that date when JESUS IS GOD doctrine appears.

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

You mean Christians after 110AD? History tells us that it started on that date when JESUS IS GOD doctrine appears.

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

Earlier. Since when does Augustus Hopkins String become an infallible source of Christian doctrine? Do you know how foolish that is. Consider the words of St. Thomas, again and again.

What did St. Thomas say after the Ressurection?

“My Lord and my God”

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Chaldean

INC is just like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses. They do not believe in the divinity of Christ.

Why bother arguing with them? We’re right. They’re wrong!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Chaldean

INC is just like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses. They do not believe in the divinity of Christ.

Why bother arguing with them? We’re right. They’re wrong!

Perhaps their hearts and minds will be opened…

 

[ETE]

ETE;4017250:

Ferdi, you are not paying attention to my questions.

Who commanded the Catholics to worship images?

The heretics that left the church? or the church itself?

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

Buddy, you need to look up the defn of worship before you talk.

So which definition did God use in the word “WORSHIP” when he commanded, DO NOT WORSHIP IMAGES?

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

So which definition did God use in the word “WORSHIP” when he commanded, DO NOT WORSHIP IMAGES?

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

The way the Egyptians worshipped their gods!!

Worship in this day in age means worship towards God only, historically, friend, worship did not mean this. It was much more broad. Consider the salutation of the kings of the countries “your worship”, “you majesty”, etc.

You can even look it up and see it includes this if you don’t believe me
dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship
wor·ship http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png
noun 1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. 2.formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. 3.adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success. 4.the object of adoring reverence or regard. 5.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her). –verb (used with object) 6.to render religious reverence and homage to. 7.to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing). –verb (used without object) 8.to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity. 9.to attend services of divine worship. 10.to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

 

[ralphinal]

Why are we hung up on a translation of a 50 year old book that answers these charges itself?

Why do we not look at the modern CCC?

And I am still waiting on other sources with academic citations that I can see.

 

[ETE]

CHRISTINE77;4017469:

Chaldean

INC is just like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses. They do not believe in the divinity of Christ.

Why bother arguing with them? We’re right. They’re wrong!

Perhaps their hearts and minds will be opened…

Opened in what? In worshiping IMAGES? God has already seen what you have done…

Jeremiah 10: 3 For the customs of the peoples are delusion; Because it is wood cut from the forest, The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool. 4 “They decorate it with silver and with gold; They fasten it with nails and with hammers So that it will not totter. 5 "Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they, And they cannot speak; They must be carried, Because they cannot walk! Do not fear them, For they can do no harm, Nor can they do any good.” … 8 But they are altogether stupid and foolish In their discipline of delusion–their idol is wood!

Pity…I really mean it.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Opened in what?

Wisdom, Sanity, Aposolic Tradition, authentic Christianity. Any one of those would be a start.

 

[ETE]

Chaldean

INC is just like the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses. They do not believe in the divinity of Christ.

Why bother arguing with them? We’re right. They’re wrong!

I have not seen any good refutation against my presentation.

So how could it be right of there is no proof that it is?

Presumed perhaps?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

yes ETE you presume right. We know what we believe, we believe that Jesus is God. Believe what you want. I dont’ care.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I have not seen any good refutation against my presentation.

So how could it be right of there is no proof that it is?

Presumed perhaps?

I have not seen any presentation worthy of refutation. Its a complete mutation of the Scriptures.

The only thing I will provide you is someting you should have read first before posting on these boards:

Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
Relics