Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[Gabriel_of_12]

Respond to JONATHAN CID:

If those verses are true and signifies JESUS IS GOD, why then based on history, JESUS IS GOD doctrine came out in the early second century? And all the writers of the NT are long long gone?

**First of all what do you mean if those verses are true? do you deny that the word of God in sacred scripture is not true?

To answer your question, the doctrine of Jesus is fully human, fully divine was believed since the original apostles.

What you find in the 2nd century is not a new divine doctrine of Jesus being introduced here by the Catholic church, but the Church defending this doctrine from the apostles against heretics who refused to accept this apostolic teaching that Jesus was fully human and fully divine in the 2nd century against Arianism. Today it is known as NeoArianism like the one you subsribe to today. It is Neo because the Catholic church has already refuted these age old arguments and settled the matter.

So the Catholic church counciled and clarified this already belief teaching, that Jesus fully human fully divine and made it doctrine so as no one can dispute this belief no more in Christianity. Remember what came out of the Traditions handed down from the apostles, whenever a belief got attacked, the church councils and defines the already belief and makes it official doctrine and clarifies it to the understanding for the people of that time, and excommunicates anyone who teaches a different gospel other than the one handed down from Jesus and the apostles.**

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

**The author above is only revealing what is recorded from history. The author does not explain that ST. Ignatius, was a disciple of St. Polycarp who was a direct disciple of beloved St. John the apostle of Jesus himself. Not everything Jesus said and done is recorded. To recieve the fullness of truth and the full deposit of faith, you have to have the Catholic church who posseses the Sacred Tradition of the apostles and Jesus along with Sacred Scripture. You cant have one without the other. If you only have one, you only have part of the truth and not all the Truth. I dont think St. Ignatius is going to invent a new Jesus when St. Polycarp lived to be very old before he went to his death believing and teaching that Jesus was the Word of God made flesh.

Any reasonable and logical person can see through the lens of history and make a sound judgment with sacred scripture supporting the divinity of Jesus Christ before the second century. The second century only defines the diety of Jesus to the Christians after the diety of Jesus came under attack, and these heretics were excommunicated in the second century. And anyone who does not believe this teaching from the apostles. This excommunication is recorded in history, does your author mention the fact that it was in the second century that the belief of Jesus diety came under attack? Dont settle for partial truth, go for nothing but the Truth.
--------------**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Iglesia Ni Cristo was re-established in July 27, 1914 in the Philippines.

Anyone who would like to ask question regarding our faith, please do so and I will gladly answer them…Thanks.

Make it civil and in order.

So tell me ETE, what is your apostolic mission?

Who gave you the authority to practice your Christianity?

Do you have a leader in your community? priesthood? bishop? deacons? clergy?

If your church has an apostolic mission, who gave it to directly?

 

[ferdie]

ferdie;3989379:

Mine was to make sense on what the scriptures forewarned cause history itself proved that it did happen when Israel turn their back to God by listening to the false prophets…so why would it be NOT POSSIBLE for the next generation of preachers in the Church after the Apostles to fall away from the true faith?

Some will fall away but not all, just as scripture told us.

Do you think the Apostles just give us a warning just to scare us?

Not to scare us but to warn us to be vigilant. That is why we have the Church Fathers who were vigilant and defended the church from early heretics.

Do you think Paul will tell us that the savage wolves will not spare the flock [Church] but in reality the savage wolves spared the church? Don’t you think common sense should overrule?

Acts 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock

.

They came and were defeated by the early Church Fathers. These wolves are still attacking up to now, but the Mother Church is still vigilant in the defending the doctrines of the Apostles.

How about destructive untrue doctrines? Did the Church wipe them out or the “destructive untrue doctrines” remains and enjoyed its stays in the Church built by Christ?

All these untrue doctrines were already defeated,** but then again we still have wolves that keep on reviving them.**

We have our own mind and judgment to determine if it remains, just simply apply comparisons from the Church of the first century to the latter. We have historical books and the bible that can be used for comparison is it not? Why not compare? Unless man tend not to know the truth, then that is the worst case of such human being.

I already did my studies and put my soul in danger by hating the Catholic Church and joining the born again fundamentalist church and allowed myself to be indoctrinated by the INC. Again thanks be to God fo giving me the grace to study on my own without the fundamentalist and INC behind me. I was with itching ears followed differing doctrines just like what the scriptures said. But the Holy Spirit led me back to the true church.
**You should be listening to your own advise. **

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines

, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.
This is true, we had them in the early church and we still have them popping left and right. Thanks be to God for keeping His promise of protecting his Body, His Church.

Man perished in the past due to ignorance and being stubborned and did not listen to God’s warning…the same history will repeat itself again.

As I’ve said before, you should be listening to your own advise

 

[ETE]

Who is the Holy Spirit?

As it is written…

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[ETE]

First of all what do you mean if those verses are true? do you deny that the word of God in sacred scripture is not true?

Sorry for the wording. What I mean is, If those verses are truly refers to Jesus as God, then it is impossible to have a record based on history referring to Jesus as God, most specially if it is dated 110 AD. We both know that the NT writings and the writers themselves passed away for a long period of time.

Secondly, you cannot read a straight to the point and a word per word teachings that JESUS IS GOD in the NT the way bishop Ignatius worded his letters without any doubt JESUS IS GOD, but the problem is, it reflected on his letters only and NOT in the NT writings…and why not? Think about it and you will know the logical explanation.

To answer your question, the doctrine of Jesus is fully human, fully divine was believed since the original apostles.

There are no verses that says Jesus is fully human and fully God, like God Man…if there is, then what verse?

What you find in the 2nd century is not a new divine doctrine of Jesus being introduced here by the Catholic church, but the Church defending this doctrine from the apostles against heretics who refused to accept this apostolic teaching that Jesus was fully human and fully divine in the 2nd century against Arianism. Today it is known as NeoArianism like the one you subsribe to today. It is Neo because the Catholic church has already refuted these age old arguments and settled the matter.

Is it not more believable for the NT writers most specially Jesus and his Apostles to declare JESUS IS GOD in a straight forward manner and be part of the gospel hence they are the gospel preachers for salvation Instead of Ignatius? And why did they single out the Father as THE ONLY TRUE GOD if Jesus is God?

John 17:1,3 After Jesus finished saying this, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. 3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet** there is for us only one God, the Father**, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live;

No man with a right frame of mind who would agree that when the term “ONLY” is being applied then it means MORE THAN ONE entity, and in these verses: the ONLY ONE GOD was the subject matter is it not? and He is THE ONLY GOD whoever that entity is.

And Arianism is not in the 2nd century my friend. The belief that JESUS IS GOD reigned in the church from 110AD until the time of Arius who contested the deity of Christ using the letters of the NT.

So the Catholic church counciled and clarified this already belief teaching, that Jesus fully human fully divine and made it doctrine so as no one can dispute this belief no more in Christianity. Remember what came out of the Traditions handed down from the apostles, whenever a belief got attacked, the church councils and defines the already belief and makes it official doctrine and clarifies it to the understanding for the people of that time, and excommunicates anyone who teaches a different gospel other than the one handed down from Jesus and the apostles.

That is not what history tells us. Arius views of JESUS IS NOT GOD was sided by many bishops of the church and the debates amongst them has taken its toll, and for two years no solution has been found, which makes sense due to the fact that JESUS IS GOD doctrine pop out only in the early second century…and no shadows of it in the NT writings.

Who forced them to decide JESUS IS GOD? The Impatient pagan Emperor Constantine…used his power for the bishops to agree on HIS DECREE that JESUS IS GOD…NOw here is the question, Let say he did not intervene, whom do you think is your God? Think about it.

“The Council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the Emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ…” (Challenge of a Liberal Faith, p. 60)

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

The author above is only revealing what is recorded from history. The author does not explain that ST. Ignatius, was a disciple of St. Polycarp who was a direct disciple of beloved St. John the apostle of Jesus himself. Not everything Jesus said and done is recorded. To recieve the fullness of truth and the full deposit of faith, you have to have the Catholic church who posseses the Sacred Tradition of the apostles and Jesus along with Sacred Scripture. You cant have one without the other. If you only have one, you only have part of the truth and not all the Truth. I dont think St. Ignatius is going to invent a new Jesus when St. Polycarp lived to be very old before he went to his death believing and teaching that Jesus was the Word of God made flesh.

I agree, that what he revealed was historical facts. But my contention is, when was JESUS IS GOD beliefs started to appear? And based SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY book, it was early second century, and the Catholic Encyclopedia said that God the Son dogma was “developed only later” which is in agreement with what the Systematic Theology book. …

New Catholic Encyclopedia v13 Nihil obstat: John P Whalen M.A.S.T.D., Censor Deputatus: Imprimatur: Patrick A. O’Boyle, D.D. Illinois: Jack Heraty & Associates, Inc. 1967

“To ask whether the NT presents Jesus as God the Son is to inquire about his consubstantiality and seek a frame of reference for him that was developed only later.”

Any reasonable and logical person can see through the lens of history and make a sound judgment with sacred scripture supporting the divinity of Jesus Christ before the second century. The second century only defines the diety of Jesus to the Christians after the diety of Jesus came under attack, and these heretics were excommunicated in the second century. And anyone who does not believe this teaching from the apostles. This excommunication is recorded in history, does your author mention the fact that it was in the second century that the belief of Jesus diety came under attack? Dont settle for partial truth, go for nothing but the Truth.

Actually, I’ve been dealing with this issues for a long time but none of the Christ Deity subscribers can provide a biblical verse in a straight forward manner that says JESUS IS GOD or GOD THE SON the way Ignatius wrote his letters and circulated to the church in the early second century…

“The earliest post-New Testament writers, known as the Apostolic Fathers, continued the development that had emerged in the later New Testament period of calling Jesus God. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the second century to the Ephesians, declares, ‘Jesus Christ our God was conceived of Mary’ (Eph 18:2) and, ‘God was now appearing in human form’ (Eph 19:3).”(Word Become Flesh, pp. 161-162)

 

[ETE]

So tell me ETE, what is your apostolic mission?

The Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ] mission is to offer salvation to mankind and bring them back to the flock built by Christ.

As the prophesy states, they will become the “other sheep” of Christ…

John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Who gave you the authority to practice your Christianity?

God gave to his messenger the power to bring back to life once again the way to salvation, the church or flock that he built [Matthew 16:18] based also in John 10:16 and many more prophecies that reflects this ministry wherein I have a duty to share my faith with you.

Do you have a leader in your community? priesthood? bishop? deacons? clergy?

We have Ministers, workers, bishops, deacons etc…

If your church has an apostolic mission, who gave it to directly?

God gave it to his last messenger whose name is Bro Felix Y. Manalo and we are the fruits of his labors in this last days.

 

[ETE]

Some will fall away but not all, just as scripture told us.

So based on your presumption, some falls away from the faith.
Are those who falls away are idols worshipers too or not?

Not to scare us but to warn us to be vigilant. That is why we have the Church Fathers who were vigilant and defended the church from early heretics.

Can you tell me, was Jesus and his Apostles IMAGE/IDOL WORSHIPERS?

They came and were defeated by the early Church Fathers. These wolves are still attacking up to now, but the Mother Church is still vigilant in the defending the doctrines of the Apostles.

So they defeated the savage wolves and false teachers in bringing untrue and destructive doctrines?

So IMAGE/IDOL WORSHIP are but true doctrine taught and prtactice by Jesus and his Apostles and the entire first cenbtury Christians right? Because that is the present doctrine of the church [RCC]. Can you shed lights on this contradiction?

All these untrue doctrines were already defeated,** but then again we still have wolves that keep on reviving them.**

I see, so all your doctrines and practices did come from the first century church and as you said, the savage wolves false doctrines were completely defeated, right?

Did the NT preached purgatory? If not, then who brought that dogma in the church, are you sure you defeated the doctrines of the savage wolves?

I already did my studies and put my soul in danger by hating the Catholic Church and joining the born again fundamentalist church and allowed myself to be indoctrinated by the INC. Again thanks be to God fo giving me the grace to study on my own without the fundamentalist and INC behind me. I was with itching ears followed differing doctrines just like what the scriptures said. But the Holy Spirit led me back to the true church.
**You should be listening to your own advise. **

I see, so from worshiping God in spirit and truth, now you vows down before images right? And you are thanking god for that grace that he made you an idol worshipers am I right?

Please clarify your position.

This is true, we had them in the early church and we still have them popping left and right. Thanks be to God for keeping His promise of protecting his Body, His Church.

I see, so all the teachings that you have is also the teachings written in the NT right? Well if NOT then savage wolves teaching remains, so what do you think? Do you have the savage wolves teaching or the bible teachings?

 

[ferdie]

So based on your presumption, some falls away from the faith.
Are those who falls away are idols worshipers too or not?

It is not presumption, it is in the scriptures, and if you will set aside your bias you will find out that SOME will fall away and NOT ALL like what you believe. We both know that idol worshipers do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Can you tell me, was Jesus and his Apostles IMAGE/IDOL WORSHIPERS?

What a question, of course they are not idol worshipers.

So they defeated the savage wolves and false teachers in bringing untrue and destructive doctrines?

So IMAGE/IDOL WORSHIP are but true doctrine taught and prtactice by Jesus and his Apostles and the entire first cenbtury Christians right? Because that is the present doctrine of the church [RCC]. Can you shed lights on this contradiction?

They countered the heretics of their time. Read for yourself a christian history book, not just excerpt twisted by your ministers, and stop accusing us of idol worshiping. It has been explained time and time again. Read the catechism and quote me where it says that catholics are to worship idols. Otherwise stop regurgitating twisted accusations of your church

I see, so all your doctrines and practices did come from the first century church and as you said, the savage wolves false doctrines were completely defeated, right?

Oh yes, our doctrines are Apostolic and SUPPORTED by sciptures

Did the NT preached purgatory? If not, then who brought that dogma in the church, are you sure you defeated the doctrines of the savage wolves?

Again read the cathecism of the catholic church then read the references they cited in the scriptures, and then read history books and then again reference it with the catacombs in Europe and the writings of the early church fathers, you will be amazed of what you will read. But then again I am sure you will not do that, since you are very well content of just repeating your ministers words.

I see, so from worshiping God in spirit and truth, now you vows down before images right? And you are thanking god for that grace that he made you an idol worshipers am I right?

Please clarify your position.

So all kinds of vowing down are offensive? Do you know what is in my heart and my intentions when I vow down?

I see, so all the teachings that you have is also the teachings written in the NT right? Well if NOT then savage wolves teaching remains, so what do you think? Do you have the savage wolves teaching or the bible teachings?

I have the teachings of Christ as He passed it down to that Apostles, as the Apostles passed it down their appointed bishops, as these bishops passed it down to the next generation, and to the next generation up to present day. All you’ve got to do is read your history books, not just excerpts by your ministers.

 

[ralphinal]

As it is written…

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What is His nature? Is he God? Is he an angel? Please elaborate

 

[ETE]

rETE;3995827:

As it is written…

John 14:26 But the Comforter

, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What is His nature? Is he God? Is he an angel? Please elaborate

The verse speak for itself, a “SPIRIT” in nature and not God but a "COMFORTER.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

ETE
What do you make of the writings of Josephus who lived shortly afterthe time of Christ and wrote “The Antiquities of the Jews”?

Josephus (37 – sometime after 100), also known as Yosef Ben Matityahu (Joseph, son of Matthias), who became known, in his capacity as a Roman citizen, as Titus Flavius Josephus, was a first century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in 70. His works give an important insight into first-century Judaism.

In this translation of William Whiston, here is what Josephus says about Christ:

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

Could a mere man rise from the dead after three days? Jesus rose again from the dead and that is what really convinced people that he was the CHRIST, the divine son of God and what started the spread of Christianity. Before Jesus rose again from the dead, most of his followers doubted who he was. It was after he appeared to them alive that everyone believed.

In any case, this was written, much earlier that 325 AD, by a Jew.

 

[ralphinal]

The verse speak for itself, a “SPIRIT” in nature and not God but a "COMFORTER.

Was it the same Spirit that moved over the water in Genesis? Same that descended on Christ at his Baptism?

 

[rikkk1958]

As I am following this thread with an open mind fairly to anti and pro, I am still not convinced that ETE with his fairly argumentative reasoning will tell me he can prove to sway catholics from the true church. I told you ETE, I may not be as scholarly as you are but once you meet our prepared scholars from our church your argument seemed to be too elementary in nature, and this speaking only about ferdie and raphinal who not only referring to what they have read but how true the doctrine of the church was based upon from all collected writings, thoughts, and traditions had to offer. How much more if you are talking with the real scholars of the vatican? Are you the best the INC can offer here to argue? Based on my judgment, your account are your own interpretations of facts and most of all what was passed to you from your ministers. To let you know, we see you with the body of Christ in you. Jesus shared his body and blood so we can live in Him. Our communion with Him is to remind you about the presence of His Son in our body and His death and crucification offers us salvation that the Father promised on judment day. His body which is the Church whom we devoutly protect ensures that the doctrine should be passed along to future generations inorder for them to believe. The Scriptures are one of the tools the Church follows. But we also have the apostolic traditions which are passed from generation to generation. How many more people like you and Manalos will come forward whose basis of building the church are based on interpretations of the Scriptures that they wished to believe? Look at what is happening around you. Churches after churches are built upon by someone whose charisma and articulation of the scriptures can sway many who are weak in understanding. You can not deny this. Our doctrine is one and only one for one body, and that is the Catholic Church.
I wish also that you can clarify the matter to your followers about the concept of IDOL WORSHIPPERS. Your accusation is only to prove that you are presumptive about judging people by what you see. You must look within our hearts too. Having said this, you must look behind the word before interpreting. If you read the lines and judge upon the exact text then your understanding is limited only on that exact text. But the people who wrote those text were part of the community of believers who witness the life of Jesus with their own eyes and ears. You may now tell me that the four writers were not there but my response is because they got their testimony from those who have seen Him. ETE, please do not call yourselves christians because if you respect the tradition of this Church that title is for those who believe in the Holy Trinity. Peace.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Also, what do you make of Paul, ETE? When God cried to him, “Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me?”

Don’t you think Paul knew that Jesus was God? Of course he did, and he lived much earlier that 325 A.D.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sorry for the wording. What I mean is, If those verses are truly refers to Jesus as God, then it is impossible to have a record based on history referring to Jesus as God, most specially if it is dated 110 AD. We both know that the NT writings and the writers themselves passed away for a long period of time.

Gabriel of 12
It is not impossible to prove from a historical fact that Jesus was believed to be fully human and fully divine. The problem with your new religion is that it only has the only living Christian history and the Oral apostolic Tradition in the Catholic church to which you deny. Jesus commanded the apostles to preach and teach, not write down, in reality the writing is what is Tradition (record of events) and the Oral teachings are lived out in the Catholic church which was handed down from the apostles both by Oral Tradition and written letter.** 2Thesolonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. ** These Oral teachings are supported by Sacred Scripture in the Catholic church. The doctrine defined in the second century That Jesus is fully Human and fully Divine, comes from an already belief from the apostles. This is not a new doctrine being invented as you incorrectly claim, this doctrine (already believed) surfaced in council because it was under attack, and those who rejected or denied Jesus divinity, were excommunicated. You appear to fit this ancient heresy of denying Jesus divinity, is this not true? Please state your true belief in Jesus of who he is to your new developing faith?

ETT
Secondly, you cannot read a straight to the point and a word per word teachings that JESUS IS GOD in the NT the way bishop Ignatius worded his letters without any doubt JESUS IS GOD, but the problem is, it reflected on his letters only and NOT in the NT writings…and why not? Think about it and you will know the logical explanation.

Gabriel of 12
I have thought, prayed, researched, and found out that Jesus is fully divine and fully human seeing and hearing the Word of God through his apostolic successors in the Catholic faith.

St.Igantius Was martyred for the Christian faith 110 a.d for believing that Jesus was fully God, fully human, not to mention all the other successors and apostles before him. He lived during John the apostles time, and acquired his faith believing in the hypostatic union of Jesus during the lifetime of John the apostle.

Tell me ETE; would you be willing to be fed to the lions for denying the divinity of Jesus? Do you take your unbelief of this doctrine of Jesus fully human, fully divine and be willing to die for it as our early church fathers, and Popes did?

Have you learned of why the early Saints and Popes were killed for the Christian faith you apparently take for granted 2000 years later, to be able to accept a change of the teachings that our early saints and martyrs died for? You know today you accredit a Dr. by his title, or a Judge your honor, could you please respect the blood of these saints and due them the honor of either calling them by their name or Saint. If you show no courstesy to these great witnesses to Jesus, I can respect that, but it only reveals the integrety you give a Dr. or Judge over a martyr for Jesus.

ETT
There are no verses that says Jesus is fully human and fully God, like God Man…if there is, then what verse?

Gabriel of 12
Here is Jesus in his resurrected state eating breakfast in front of recorded eyewitnessed account with his apostles.

John 21:12
Jesus said to them, “Come, have breakfast.” And none of the disciples dared to ask him, 6 “Who are you?” because they realized it was the Lord.
13
Jesus came over and took the bread and gave it to them, and in like manner the fish.
14
7 This was now the third time Jesus was revealed to his disciples after being raised from the dead.

Jesus is seen eating fish in front of the apostles after he resurrected.

Luke 24:38
Then he said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do questions arise in your hearts?
39
10 Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. **Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have.” 40
And as he said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
41
While they were still incredulous for joy and were amazed, he asked them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
42
They gave him a piece of baked fish; **

Colossians15
6 **He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. **16
For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18
He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19
For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,
20
and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.

John 7:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for** I came from God and am here**; (now Jesus just stated he came from God and am here, revealing that he is divine for he comes from God) I did not come on my own, but he sent me.( This last statement is Jesus stating his humanity to be born of woman, is why his humanity was sent from God, and the flesh obeys the Word of God which became flesh)

John 9:30
14 **The Father and I are one." **
31
The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
32
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”
33
The Jews answered him, “**We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” **

John 14:8
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us.”
9
Jesus said to him, **"Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? **
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

There are no verses that say Jesus is NOT fully human and fully God. But there are plenty of eyewitness recorded accounts of his divinity and his humanity. What you are looking for is one scripture to define this doctrine, in order to deny it there are no such scriptures.

You see that is the problem when you dont have apostolic Oral Tradition and sacred scripture confirming the teachings of Jesus Christ and the first apostles. If you lack the Oral Traditions of the apostles you are left in the dark to only depend on what was recorded in scripture, instead of hearing the oral teachings from Jesus himself and the apostles. I hate to bust your bubble, but not everything is recorded in scripture of what Jesus said and did, not to mention most of the NT books were not written directly from the apostles themselves. I leave you with some more scriptures to reflect from the Oral teachings of the apostles of Jesus divinity and humanity, there are many more, so I will just post a few more.

John 20; 27
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”
28
17 Thomas answered and said to him, **“My Lord and my God!” **

John 8:23
He said to them, “You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world.
24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. **For if you do not believe that I AM, **12 you will die in your sins.”

John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM.

John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world 3 and not according to Christ.
9
**For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity 4 bodily, **10 (if you cant see fully human fully divine here, then maybe you should get baptised so that God can give you eyes to see, and ears to hear)
and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.
11
In him 5 you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.
12
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Hebrews 1:5
2 For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”? Or again: “I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me”?
6
And again, when he leads 3 the first-born into the world, he says: “Let all the angels of God worship him.”
7
Of the angels he says: “He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame”;
8
**but of the Son: “Your throne, O God, 4 stands forever and ever; **and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9
You loved justice and hated wickedness; **therefore God, your God, anointed **you with the oil of gladness above your companions”;
10
and: "At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So based on your presumption, some falls away from the faith.
Are those who falls away are idols worshipers too or not?

HEY, ETE, YOU GOT GABRIEL OF 12 MIXED UP WITH ANOTHER POSTER THESE ARE NOT MY QUOTES. JUST WANTED THIS CLARIFIED;POST #105 ARE NOT GABRIEL OF 12 QUOTES. PLEASE DONT CONFUSE THE POSTERS, THANKS, PEACE BE WITH YOU

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

CONT.

ETT
Is it not more believable for the NT writers most specially Jesus and his Apostles to declare JESUS IS GOD in a straight forward manner and be part of the gospel hence they are the gospel preachers for salvation Instead of Ignatius? And why did they single out the Father as THE ONLY TRUE GOD if Jesus is God?

Gabriel of 12
Jesus and the apostles did teach Jesus is God, but you have to have a 2000 year old Christian Oral Tradition to know this fully. Who do you think taught St. Ignatius, the apostles themselves. The mystery is that the New testament reveals the blessed Trinity, and when you read the New Testament, it reveals all three persons of the One God head. That is why you are not able to see When Jesus’s humanity gets revealed, when scripture reveals his divinity, when scripture reveals The Father, and the Holy Spirit. Without the apostolic teaching, one will always be led astray from be made known to these mysteries of God. But they are there. But if you just go by the bible only! then your going to get over 33,000 different interpretations of the scriptures. I hate to tell you this, but your new faith just added to the thousands seperated from the One holy apostolic Catholic church, so you have alot more of new christian faiths ahead of you, who decided against the already 2000 year old Christian faith in the Catholic church.

ETT
And Arianism is not in the 2nd century my friend. The belief that JESUS IS GOD reigned in the church from 110AD until the time of Arius who contested the deity of Christ using the letters of the NT.

Gabriel of 12
I made note to your faith is from Arianism. Arianism was alive and well in the second century my friend here are the facts. For clarificaition the first Christian to attack the divinity of Jesus Christ in the last decade of the second century was a leather dealer by the name of Theodotus who was excommunicated. What you dont see yet, is that false teachers have already crept into the church teachings, when we later find out who they are, Sabellius an African in the third century denied the Trinity. Paul of Samosata, condemned and deposed by a council of Bishops in 269 A.D. The famous Arianism heresy continues and surfaced in 319 A.D. What makes Arianism more popular than the earlier heretics is because Arius was very reveered by Many until his true colors were exposed, and that this heresy kept poppin up for the next hundred years, till it finallly went out. Now you and the JW’s, Mormons are bringing back this heresy 1800 years later, interesting.

ETT
That is not what history tells us. Arius views of JESUS IS NOT GOD was sided by many bishops of the church and the debates amongst them has taken its toll, and for two years no solution has been found, which makes sense due to the fact that JESUS IS GOD doctrine pop out only in the early second century…and no shadows of it in the NT writings.

Gabriel of 12
Your above statement does not reflect fact only your opinion to which I respect but cannot accept as a matter of truth. The Truth is Arius had many followers from the early 2nd century that denied Jesus divinity.

The denial of Jesus divinity is what was new here, not the belief that Jesus was fully divine fully human. Yes this doctrine only gets revealed here because it was never contested by the first Christians and their successors. It is made an official doctrine that can never be changed or challenged within the Church again or get excommunicated. You need to see history from the a perspective of how it was lived, not try to fit your own ideologies in history to try and support your view. You will never get the full truth, if your not truthful to history.

ST. Clement of Rome a first century saint is accredited to a writing describing the divinity of Jesus. I can tell you this much though out of this Council came the Nicene Creed to settle the relentless Arian heresy, and become anathematised from the Church with his followers and bishops. This Nicened Creed is still recited at every Mass around the world. This is not a new belief in the 325ad, it is a clarified, and documented already Catholic belief and defined against all arguments that this is what was handed down to the Church from Jesus and the apostle.

ETT
Who forced them to decide JESUS IS GOD? The Impatient pagan Emperor Constantine…used his power for the bishops to agree on HIS DECREE that JESUS IS GOD…NOw here is the question, Let say he did not intervene, whom do you think is your God? Think about it.

Gabriel of 12
You wrongly imply what you have been wrongly informed about. True Constantine did what he did to keep the peace between the keepers of the true Christian faith and the enemies of the Christian faith who were trying to change it, for example Arianism (denial of Jesus true divinity), I call it Arianism from the early second century because this is when it took official notice by the Catholic church.Up until then the divinity of Jesus was not contested among Christian believers.

The followers of Arius (denied Jesus divinity) were killing Church fathers (believers in the divinity of Jesus) who opposed them. But you do not mention anything about this known history. That is why Constantine had to intervene to keep peace and order, while the Catholic church counciled these doctrinal isssues under attack by this new theology from the second century that Jesus was not fully divine. Why do you think St. Ignatius wrote his letter about the already belief in the divinity of Jesus, to confirm the faithful and the new believers that this is our faith. After all the dust settled, The Catholic church confirmed the already belief that Jesus is fully human, fully divine.

Constantine had nothing directly to do with the church council if you study more history you will find that Constantine Worked through his personal advisor Hosius, a Bishop of Cordova (Spain) who took letters to Alexander and Arius demanding them to cease disturbing the peace of the Church. This is what helped Arius delay his outcome as a heretic. If anything history proved the Emperor assisted the enemy of the Church calling for peace, than help defeat the enemy of heresies.

ETT
“The Council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the Emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ…” (Challenge of a Liberal Faith, p. 60)

Gabriel of 12

You know I dont how much of this is true, but from what I have gathered from you, I seriously doubt that Constantine would order the council, to believe in the divinity of Jesus, when he was still a pagan. If pagan Rome got wind of such a public outcry, Constantine would of been in another civil war. This politician did what he did to keep the peace. Remember many of our first Popes all faced Roman Emperors, and neither denied their faith in the divinity of Jesus. Constantine only lifted the persecution of Catholic church. He was never a Pope. In fact he moved to East to Constantinople, and left the Pope to run the Catholic church from Rome.

The church was underground for 300 hundred years, and revealing these mysteries took time to come to the surface. But when others tried to distort the teachings, now a record is made in history to note the attack against the already belief in the divinity of Jesus. That is why you see records of Constantine trying to keep the peace and excommunications being recorded, not to mention murders from Arius followers to believers in Jesus Divinity.

Peace

 

[inJESUS]

When will heresies stop…

 

[ETE]

ETE
What do you make of the writings of Josephus who lived shortly afterthe time of Christ and wrote “The Antiquities of the Jews”?

Josephus (37 – sometime after 100), also known as Yosef Ben Matityahu (Joseph, son of Matthias), who became known, in his capacity as a Roman citizen, as Titus Flavius Josephus, was a first century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in 70. His works give an important insight into first-century Judaism.

In this translation of William Whiston, here is what Josephus says about Christ:

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

Could a mere man rise from the dead after three days? Jesus rose again from the dead and that is what really convinced people that he was the CHRIST, the divine son of God and what started the spread of Christianity. Before Jesus rose again from the dead, most of his followers doubted who he was. It was after he appeared to them alive that everyone believed.

In any case, this was written, much earlier that 325 AD, by a Jew.

Josephus is a Jewish historian from where the existence of Jesus outside the biblical history were first mentioned.

But here is the most intriguing question, from where did Josephus get that information? If he took it from the immediate gospel preachers aside from the apostles that perished before 70AD, then the belief that JESUS IS GOD was never introduced yet, or else Josephus would magnify it in his book…right? But he he did not? and why not? It is a very important message for mankind that God became man, but never he mentioned such Jesus deity…

Instead, Josephus clearly stated…Jesus is the Christ…“He was [the] Christ”…and never mentioned JESUS IS GOD nor Jesus is GOD THE SON or GOD BECAME MAN…which supposed to be mentioned since the materials of information of his book logically make sense did come up from the Christians of his time.

And the rising of Jesus in three days does not in anyways means Jesus is God…or else historical book nor biblical books should attest such information, hence…it is absent in human history nor biblical history.

This verse certified that the one raised from the dead [Jesus] is not the raiser of the dead [God] in a simple basic common sense

Acts 4:10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.

 

[ETE]

Was it the same Spirit that moved over the water in Genesis? Same that descended on Christ at his Baptism?

God has seven spirits being sent to the entire world…I don;t know which one is the one mentioned in Genesis…nor the one that descended from heaven after Christ baptism. But we all know that it is the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.