Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[ETE]

Iglesia Ni Cristo was re-established in July 27, 1914 in the Philippines.

Anyone who would like to ask question regarding our faith, please do so and I will gladly answer them…Thanks.

Make it civil and in order.

 

[ETE]

Iglesia Ni Cristo was re-established in July 27, 1914 in the Philippines.

Anyone who would like to ask question regarding our faith, please do so and I will gladly answer them…Thanks.

Make it civil and in order

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Am I correct that the Iglesia Ni Cristo denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Trinity?

 

[ETE]

Yes we do cause it is not in the scriptures.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

“Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” – John 20:28

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” – John 1:1

And the Word dwelt among us.

“…Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28

“Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.’”

“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” – 2 Corinthians 3:17-18

 

[thistle]

Iglesia Ni Cristo was re-established in July 27, 1914 in the Philippines.

Anyone who would like to ask question regarding our faith, please do so and I will gladly answer them…Thanks.

Make it civil and in order.

I live in the Philippines. INC is a cult and a deviant religion. It controls people even telling them how to vote giving them no choice. Its leaders enrich themselves requiring its poor members to pay up. It denies the divinity of Jesus.
It is all about power, control and money!
INC should be avoided like the plague.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Iglesia Ni Cristo was re-established in July 27, 1914 in the Philippines.

Anyone who would like to ask question regarding our faith, please do so and I will gladly answer them…

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’” (Matt. 16:18-19)

So, if the Church had to be re-established in 1914, that means Jesus lied?

 

[ETE]

Respond to JONATHAN CID:

If those verses are true and signifies JESUS IS GOD, why then based on history, JESUS IS GOD doctrine came out in the early second century? And all the writers of the NT are long long gone?

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

---

I will address your presented verses later, but for the meantime, I would like to tackle a logic and common sense discussion.

 

[ETE]

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’” (Matt. 16:18-19)

So, if the Church had to be re-established in 1914, that means Jesus lied?

The powers of “Death” is the subject matter that will not prevail the TRUE members of the body of Christ.

It does not refers to the organization itself.

 

[ETE]

I live in the Philippines. INC is a cult and a deviant religion. It controls people even telling them how to vote giving them no choice. Its leaders enrich themselves requiring its poor members to pay up. It denies the divinity of Jesus.
It is all about power, control and money!
INC should be avoided like the plague.

In the court of law, presumptive notions has no value, but facts and evidence will make a case believable and true.

Prove that what we stand for is un-biblical, if you do not, then it will not stand my friend.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Respond to JONATHAN CID:

If those verses are true and signifies JESUS IS GOD, why then based on history, JESUS IS GOD doctrine came out in the early second century? And all the writers of the NT are long long gone?

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

---

I will address your presented verses later, but for the meantime, I would like to tackle a logic and common sense discussion.

Before we go on, please note that I am only interested in debate for the sake of Christian ethic. Forensics plays a role in the Catholic faith. I’m not trying to seem demeaning, but you are severely mistaken.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. The divinity of Christ was affirmed by an ecumenical council of the Church, the infallible Church of Jesus Christ. The Church, bearing the authority of Christ, rebuked those who denied His Divinity. The Scriptures, which I’m sure you use, were likewise compiled by such an ecumenical council of these Apostolic Successors at an even later time. That Jesus Christ is God, that the Holy Spirit is like-wise God, was believe “everywhere, always, and by all” Catholics and is therefore dogma - truth.

 

[ETE]

Before we go on, please note that I am only interested in debate for the sake of Christian ethic. Forensics plays a role in the Catholic faith. I’m not trying to seem demeaning, but you are severely mistaken.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. The divinity of Christ was affirmed by an ecumenical council of the Church, the infallible Church of Jesus Christ. The Church, bearing the authority of Christ, rebuked those who denied His Divinity. The Scriptures, which I’m sure you use, were likewise compiled by such an ecumenical council of these Apostolic Successors at an even later time. That Jesus Christ is God, that the Holy Spirit is like-wise God, was believe “everywhere, always, and by all” Catholics and is therefore dogma - truth.

Which council are you talking about?

But history makes sense is it not? Meaning, if Divinity of Christ exist in the gospel, and in the OT and was preached by the Apostles…then early second century historical events wherein letters of a gentile bishop of Antioch named Ignatius were in circulation for THE FIRST TIME, which doesn’t make any sense…why circulate a doctrine if it is in existence? Above all why in the early second century? The time all the Apostles are all dead for a long long time and the NT gospel were done?

Did the Catholic Superiors agrees with the historical facts about Jesus Divinity that was developed in later times? Let’s read your book…

New Catholic Encyclopedia v13 Nihil obstat: John P Whalen M.A.S.T.D., Censor Deputatus: Imprimatur: Patrick A. O’Boyle, D.D. Illinois: Jack Heraty & Associates, Inc. 1967

"To ask whether the NT presents Jesus as God the Son is to inquire about his consubstantiality and seek a frame of reference for him that was developed only later"

The same thing, JESUS IS GOD concept was developed later is it not?

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

The first seven undisputed ecumenical councils of the Catholic Church affirmed the Divinity of Christ, something which was already part of Catholic belief, or else it could not have been affirmed. The need for the councils was repeatedly to rebuke those who were teaching things that were not Christian.

Also, may I ask who your source is and on what basis you have chosen to repeatedly quote from this source? That is not “my book”. You will note I’m not a Roman Catholic and I understand Catholic dogma as believe “everywhere, always, and by all”. The next time you quote your source also, please give me some more context. I’m not so sure the author you are quoting is even saying what you think he is saying.

Also, would you please quote the scriptures of the Bible, the book whose canon was established by the same Bishops of the Catholic Church? I would personally tend to give the Holy Scriptures more primacy than the “New Catholic Encyclopedia”.

 

[mdgspencer]

This group was discussed on Catholic Answers some months ago at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61035&highlight=ventilacion
I thought the most interesting item in this earlier thread was the link provided in post number 17 to a recounting of Karl Keating’s debate with one of this sect’s spokesmen.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Pretty decent article from that other thread:

catholic.com/library/Iglesia_Ni_Cristo.asp

 

[ralphinal]

How do you reconcile it with the fact that Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I am” thus using the same description for himself as God: Yahwah. The acient Jews knew he was saying that he was God as they looked to stone him for that and for calling himself the Son of God “making him equal to God.”

 

[ETE]

TO: Jonathan Cid

Mine is logic based on time of existence, so as not to waste lots of time debating doctrines that is not upheld by Christ and the Apostles.

I gave you the title of the book, both books are well known in Scholars and Theologians world.

But as I promised I will tackle the verses that you’d posted seemingly JESUS IS GOD.

Re: John 20:20 Thomas utterance of “My Lord and My God”.

Can you tell me the faith of Thomas on who is the TRUE AND ONLY GOD while he was preaching the gospel in Israel before John 20:28 scenario?

Take note: Almost three years, he was with Jesus proclaiming the gospel…what did he learn regarding WHO IS THE TRUE GOD, and in returned preached to Israel? Is It Jesus?

 

[ETE]

How do you reconcile it with the fact that Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I am” thus using the same description for himself as God: Yahwah. The acient Jews knew he was saying that he was God as they looked to stone him for that and for calling himself the Son of God “making him equal to God.”

Existence is the issue, in the term: I AM was before Abraham.

And not the God’s name “I AM” that was given to Moses in the wilderness…is what he is referring to.

For the Jews, Jesus claiming he is the “Son of God” is a blasphemous declaration…for them the terms means Jesus is equating himself to God, but is it true?

Well we both know that it is false.

 

[ETE]

The first seven undisputed ecumenical councils of the Catholic Church affirmed the Divinity of Christ, something which was already part of Catholic belief, or else it could not have been affirmed. The need for the councils was repeatedly to rebuke those who were teaching things that were not Christian. .

When did the seven ecumenical councils of the Catholic Church affirm it? Give me the first date of the council meeting.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

You will have to provide me with the fair context of the book you are quoting.

You will also have to provide me with other sources than this one book which, as I stated, does not reflect what I believe. You assumed I was a Roman Catholic?

You will have to elaborate on this “logic of time” of which you have said - nothing. How does one logically affirm something that has not already existed? I cannot affirm that your shirt is yellow if your shirt did not exist.

You will have to address the issue of the Scriptures now. Read them in their context if you like. You will see that the Holy Scriptures clearly state that Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Also, the use of the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Before the New Testament understanding of the Trinity, there would have been no use to refer to the Father when referring to the Lord, because Jews would have mentioned only the Lord. Now, the Apostles clearly mention the Father when they speak of the Father, the Son when speaking of the Son, and the Holy Spirit when speaking of her, and of each in various instances refer to these as God. Address that.

You have the verse regarding Thomas. Pick up your Bible and read it for yourself, if you ever do.

19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He [Jesus] said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. 24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you. 27 Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.