Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[abucs]

ETE,

you ask me,

“but what does it do in the historical facts that the doctrine of JESUS IS GOD appears only in 110AD”

well for a start i raised many points in that post. specifically the history, authenticity of the early church compared to INC and the weakness of using the bible as the supreme authority.

But let us forget all that, as you have done, and just concentrate on your question.

I have provided a link previously just working from the scriptures for the case that Jesus was seen as part of the one true God.
Now we can each take a different angle on that and with anything to do with the scriptures, it is an individual interpretation. I think it is sufficient to stick with (how i see it) the churches teaching all along that Jesus is part of the one God.

You have to at least concede from the link i posted that the idea that Jesus is God can be very definitely read into the writings - at the very LEAST.
Father and i are one.
no one knows the father but the son.
No one comes to the father but through the son.
Came down from Heaven.
Before Abraham was, I AM.
the prophets saw my day and rejoiced.
I AM the alpha and the omega.
the recorded facts that the Sanhedrin found Jesus guilty of ‘making himself equal with God’.
power to lay down his life and raise it up again.
power to forgive sins.
calling himself the Lord of the Sabbath.
salvation is through Jesus alone.
Apostles worshipping Jesus.
Driving out demons in Jesus’ name.
and many many others supplied by the link.

You have to at the very LEAST accept that the idea of Jesus was God can be - at the very LEAST, read into it.

So do any of the writers say Jesus is not God. No they don’t. would John write - “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the Word was God. and he was made flesh and dwelt among us”.

would he write in his first letter that we saw and touched this Word of God.

Would he write this knowing that the idea of Jesus was God was at the very LEAST easily assumed from the other writings but was wrong ? would he not also think that he was contributing to the wrongness ? Wouldn’t he want to clearly state Jesus is not God instead of trying to explain the opposite ?

It does not make sense. Instead, none of the writers say Jesus was not God. Because there is such strong evidence, you would think that they would make that clear, but instead they don’t say Jesus is not God but instead record the events to show he was.

When in 110 as you say the doctrine of Jesus’ divinity began, was there any widespread disagreement among Christians about this NEW doctrine ?

show me where.

If Christians had the idea of Jesus was not God and somebody suddenly invented it in 110 then surely there would have been evidence whether written of historical of the church splitting in two and argueing about this. There is no evidence of that.
the only evidence is you, 2000 years later saying hey, that’s when it was invented.

Wouldn’t the Roman state who were killing Christians left right and centre point out - hey, you guys didn’t believe Jesus was God and now suddenly from 110 you have changed your mind. here is the evidence. here is the misunderstanding. You Christians believing Jesus is God have changed your minds. there is no evidence of that. If it were true, the Romans would have made the obvious point to discredit Christians who were being fed to the lions and set aflame at the state.

you say the doctrine was invented in 110. But look at your own word - doctrine. you have doctrines when you need them. before that everybody knows these things. when the church is growing and formalising and the last of the apostles has just died then that is when you need doctrine. That is, a formal declaration.

And where does this formal doctrine come from ?
You think it was just invented, and then blindly accepted by Christians, but that is not supported by common sense and history in my opinion.

 

[porthos11]

Catholics and Protestant scholars agrees with history, caused it is history that cannot be changed.

Where can you read Jesus accept the title? That is another presumption on your part. I also asked, what was Thomas belief regarding Christ before that event in John 20:28?

See? He ignores the in-your-face plain-as-noses fact that Thomas said, “My Lord and my God” and Jesus never corrected him. That clearly shows that Jesus accepted the title.

Did he receive and believe that Jesus is THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD based on the gospel of Jesus and in return they preached the same to the land of Israel before Jesus crucifixion?

Clearly, he did. “My Lord and my God.”

If it is, then cite me a verse that proves it.

How about “My Lord and my God”?

My friend, three years historical missionary campaign of Jesus and his Apostles is a good proof for your belief to stand that JESUS IS GOD…cause the same faith will spread throughout Israel…but the problem is, ISRAEL WILL KILL THEM [Jesus and his Apostles] if they preached God became man and he is Jesus.

First off, let me make one thing very clear. I am not your friend.

Second, I am not hung up on any three-year campaign before Jesus’ death. I’m only pushing in your face that Thomas said, “My Lord and my God” and Jesus never reprimanded him.

Why you may ask, because men of Israel are fully trained and biblically educated that GOD IS NOT A MAN not MAN IS NOT GOD…they are believers of the monotheistic God, THE FATHER ALONE IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD…and not only them JESUS and his Apostles have the same faith like the rest of the Jews because they are all Jews…obvious to say.

That’s what the Jews thought too, until Jesus came and tried to set them straight. And they tried to kill him for blasphemy because they had that mindset you just stated.

Why do you think Jesus claimed the Divine Name for himself (John 8:58)?

And why did John write that the Word was God and that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1, 14)? Unless the Word is not Jesus, in which case you’re against what John says in the Bible. So:

Is Jesus the Word? Was the Word with God? Was the Word God? Did the Word become flesh? Read your Bible. Answer me.

And again, and again, why did Jesus not correct Thomas when he was called God? All other apostles did so when people tried to worship them. Jesus did not correct him. Why not?

Proof is the best tool which is missing to prove you beliefs.
Next time cite verses and historical evidence.

There is absolutely no problem with Jesus claiming the Father as “his” God, because Jesus is man as well. That does not contradict his Godhood whatsoever.

I have given you the verses that Jesus claimed Godhood for himself. And as usual, you just ignore them, just like the rest of your group.

 

[ferdie]

When in 110 as you say the doctrine of Jesus’ divinity began, was there any widespread disagreement among Christians about this NEW doctrine ?

show me where.

If Christians had the idea of Jesus was not God and somebody suddenly invented it in 110 then surely there would have been evidence whether written of historical of the church splitting in two and argueing about this. There is no evidence of that.
the only evidence is you, 2000 years later saying hey, that’s when it was invented.

Not one voice among the hundreds of bishops selected by the 12 Apostles was raised against St. Ignatius. So I doubt he will find one, unless his church will misquote some author.

Wouldn’t the Roman state who were killing Christians left right and centre point out - hey, you guys didn’t believe Jesus was God and now suddenly from 110 you have changed your mind. here is the evidence. here is the misunderstanding. You Christians believing Jesus is God have changed your minds. there is no evidence of that. If it were true, the Romans would have made the obvious point to discredit Christians who were being fed to the lions and set aflame at the state.

ETE, check this out

uperekperisou.blogspot.com/2007/01/first-news-of-jesus-tiberius-pilate-and.html

 

[w_stewart]

Please cite the verse wherein God allowed angel worship.

And where is the THREE FORMS of worship in the bible?

Josue 5:14-15

14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. 15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?

That is one form of worship.

 

[w_stewart]

So it was the “WORD” of God that is God right? Was Jesus the “WORD”? meaning, was the term “WORD” an entity and that entity was Jesus? Do you get my point of view? Also, I am not suggesting God has a beginning, what I am trying to imply was…Jesus cannot be God if Jesus is the “WORD” per se, cause the The WORD has a beginning…“in the beginning was the word”

Jesus was and still is the Word.

Revelations 19:13

13 And he was clothed with a garment sprinkled with blood; and his name is called, THE WORD OF GOD.

And according to John, this Word (Christ) was already with the Father in the beginning of the world. And this Word (Christ) who was with the Father was God.

Oh and John never said the Word has a beginning. What he said is that from the beginning, the Word was with God. He was not speaking of the bginning of the Word.

Nope but the King of Tyre is a MAN like CHRIST with flesh and bones which CANNOT BE GOD once MAN is a MAN…that is the point of view that God wants us to understand. *“Yet you are a man and not God” *

You distorted what the verse intended to mean. The verse says Man CANNOT be GOD. But the verse does not even imply GOD cannot be man. Remember, in God, nothing is impossible. Therefore, he can become man, which he actually became flesh.

I see, so did GOD say he is not a man “YET” or made a descriptive distinction between GOD and MAN that GOD IS NOT A MAN and MAN IS NOT GOD?

Irrelevant question.There is nothing that can hinder God becoming a man. God is infinitely powerful so much so that he can make everything he wills.

There is no verse stating that God cannot be man. If you know a verse, share it with me and I will be a member of your cult right there and then.

 

[w_stewart]

Did it say “I and the Father are ONE” [GOD]? or you imagined it?

I did not say you said it. What I said was that Christ said he and the Father are ONE.

Btw, if Jesus is God, does God has his own God too? "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"

So who is the ONLY TRUE GOD between the two?

Well, I just quoted the Bible. Jesus said he and the Father are ONE. There is only one God. Jesus and the Father are both God. But there is only one God since Jesus and the Father are ONE.

 

[w_stewart]

Which part of those verses proves that the SOUL of those who died who had done the will of God are now in Heaven?

Is the 144,000 in heaven as we speak?

You are guessing again my friend.

You are not reading the Bible.

Revelations 4:1-4

1 After these things I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard, as it were, of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be done hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and behold there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne one sitting. 3 And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats, four and twenty ancients sitting, clothed in white garments, and on their heads were crowns of gold.

Can you at least apply common sense?

John used PAST FORM OF THE VERBS. Meaning, the event already happened.

According to John, a door in heaven was opened and he saw 24 ancients there. Unless it is the position of the entire INC flock that these ancients were angels (which obviously is contrary to the message of Revelations).

Revelations 14

1 And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the noise of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder; and the voice which I heard, was as the voice of harpers, harping on their harps. 3 And they sung as it were a new canticle, before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the ancients; and no man could say the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 4 These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb: 5 And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God.

Premise 1: John narrated that the virgins not defiled by women “follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”.

Premise 2: This Lamb is Christ.

Premise 3: Christ is now in heaven.

Conclusion: Because Christ is now in heaven, and John says the virgins follow Christ wherever he goes, therefore, the virgins are now in heaven. If that is the case, then there are already souls in heaven.

 

[ETE]

I don’t think he/she will ever understand how we use the words, worship, pray, bow down, and kneel. For INC, these are words reserved to God alone. For them God will become jealous if we honor and venerate His Saints. For them Saints are dead, but for Catholics they are more alive than us, since they already achieved their earthly purpose, to be reunited with God. They are pure, holy and already partaking in the divinity of Christ.

The only solution to your problem since you invented it is to create your own world and your own god who could understand and submit to your will.

God did not command his chosen people to carved the images of anything design for worship, to bow down or for service in spiritual sense…those who do those blasphemous acts is called “PAGANS” whom God has no business with and God sent and will continue to send plagues to your kind of people that’s why the world is sufferings…but you would never give up your disgusting idols whom you worship which was announced…

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

But remember this, God has pronounced judgments to your kind of people, to all IDOL WORSHIPERS…

Revelation 21:8 But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars–**the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." **

Pity…pity.

 

[ETE]

Just because it was written down around 110AD, doesn’t mean to say that it was the first time it was thought. Remember St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. John who wrote his Gospel to counter Cerenthus and Ebion who denied the divinity of our Lord. Obviously a well-rounded account of the history of Christianity will narrate the story of its geographic spread, taking account of the forms of the faith which spread, the reasons for the expansion, and the methods, agents, and agencies through which the spread took place. Much of the history of Chrisitianity will concern itself with the visible Church, the institunionalized fellowship, or rather, the congeries of institutions which arose because of Christ. It must tell something of the character, the life and the work of the outstanding creators and leaders of these intitutions. It must narrate the story of the divisions within the Christian community and of the efforts to heal the divisions and to realize the unity in love which is of the essence of the Christian Gospel. It must cover the development of Christian tought, especially what is called doctrine, the attempts of Christians to give intellectual formulation to their faith…There must be accounts of some of the outstanding Christians, especially of those who have been regarded by their fellows as approaching the Christian ideal and of those who have been widely influential either within the Christian fellowship or outside it.
If it is not to be distorted, the history of Christianity must include all the varieties of the faith. It must embrace not only those forms which have had a wide following, but also minority groups. It must mention not merely the numerous churches and movements which are features of the current scene in whatever part of the world they are found, but in addition those offshoots of Christianity which have disappeared. (xvi A History of Christianity, Kenneth Scott
Latouretter)

Don’t you understand logic and common sense? The point of argument is, there are letters that exist from the Apostles and the NT writers that NEVER informed the believers that JESUS IS GOD or GOD THE SON…but the letters of the gentile Ignatius of Antioch zero in the terms, GOD THE SON, JESUS IS GOD and GOD BECAME MAN right? But to whom and where did he learn such doctrines if the Christians never received such doctrines from the Apostles including John though legends says he was with John, but John never wrote in his letters and the gospel that JESUS IS GOD for people to obtain eternal life…NEVER! In fact John wrote that THE FATHER ALONE IS THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and there was no implication whatsoever that JESUS is part of the terms: THE ONLY TRUE GOD…

John 17:1,3 After Jesus had finished speaking to his disciples, he looked up toward heaven and prayed: Father, the time has come for you to bring glory to your Son, in order that he may bring glory to you… Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

In addition and to make sense, many more letters has been produced before 110AD, but 110AD is obviously so weird due to circulations of a doctrine that states JESUS IS GOD and GOD THE SON by a certain bishop named Ignatius of Antioch which the early Christians never heard before that time and we have the scriptures to prove it.

 

[ETE]

We are adopted children of God, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, we are one big family, and we are all saints. Now we believe that Jesus is our head, and we (the church) are His body. A holy man that dies goes to heaven. And still is a member of Christ body, he/she doesn’t cease being a saint, nor is that holy person removed from the family of God, nor that person cease to be a member of the body of Christ,** but that saint is MORE ALIVE in heaven than us**… Since “saint” means holy one, then we can say that those in heaven are holy, sanctified, totally holy. Remember, nothing unclean will enter the heaven. So the word saint in its fullest sense applies more to those in heaven.

Scriptures encourage us to take care of each other and to pray for each other. Scriptures say that the prayer of a holy man is beneficial for us, how much more if this holy man is in heaven? Is it wrong if your love ones on earth ask for your prayer (intercede)? They are only asking (praying) and not worshiping you. If you, a holy man on earth whose prayer is beneficial to your love ones, how much more beneficial is your prayer (intercession) if you are alive in heaven, holy and free from sin? God, is God of the living!

Why would God stop us from taking care of each other, from loving each other, from praying for each other. I think it will only make God happy to see that we are fulfilling His commandment to love one another.

You are imagining things that do not exist. Cite verses in the scriptures to prove your argument that those so called “SAINTS” are in heaven and can intercede on man’s behalf.

If you have no verses to provide…then it is just figments of the Catholics imaginations and you subscribes to it.

Take note: I am waiting for proofs.

 

[ferdie]

You are imagining things that do not exist. Cite verses in the scriptures to prove your argument that those so called “SAINTS” are in heaven and can intercede on man’s behalf.

If you have no verses to provide…then it is just figments of the Catholics imaginations and you subscribes to it.

Take note: I am waiting for proofs.

ETE, what is wrong with you, people here cited passages in the Revelation already but for some reason you are ignoring them.

Read Mark 12, Rev. 5, Rev 20. Read the whole chapters.

BTW, can please show me the page # you cited in the New Catholic Encyclopeida. Thanks.

 

[ferdie]

Don’t you understand logic and common sense? The point of argument is, there are letters that exist from the Apostles and the NT writers that NEVER informed the believers that JESUS IS GOD or GOD THE SON…but the letters of the gentile Ignatius of Antioch zero in the terms, GOD THE SON, JESUS IS GOD and GOD BECAME MAN right? But to whom and where did he learn such doctrines if the Christians never received such doctrines from the Apostles including John though legends says he was with John, but John never wrote in his letters and the gospel that JESUS IS GOD for people to obtain eternal life…NEVER! In fact John wrote that THE FATHER ALONE IS THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD and there was no implication whatsoever that JESUS is part of the terms: THE ONLY TRUE GOD…

John 17:1,3 After Jesus had finished speaking to his disciples, he looked up toward heaven and prayed: Father, the time has come for you to bring glory to your Son, in order that he may bring glory to you… Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

In addition and to make sense, many more letters has been produced before 110AD, but 110AD is obviously so weird due to circulations of a doctrine that states JESUS IS GOD and GOD THE SON by a certain bishop named Ignatius of Antioch which the early Christians never heard before that time and we have the scriptures to prove it.

Are there any verse that you can cite that says “Jesus is not God”? Someone already showed you that there are a lot of passages that says Jesus is God, or passages that implied his divinity, but you kept on ignoring them.

ETE, you really need to read some christian history books aside from the quotes of INC, I’ve told you, you will be amaze that the early church is so much different from what you have been told by your ministers.

 

[ferdie]

Iglesia Ni Cristo was re-established in July 27, 1914 in the Philippines.

Anyone who would like to ask question regarding our faith, please do so and I will gladly answer them…Thanks.

Make it civil and in order.

Can you please tell us about your founder, Manalo, the angel in Rev. 7? What makes you believe he is that angel?

 

[abucs]

Hello ETE,

i’ll try not to post again as i respect your right to see things differently.

I would just ask you to spend some time contemplating on one of the last quotes you wrote.

“Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent”.

So i would ask myself does that mean that Eternal life is to know the father only, or the son only, or only both together ?

I would think that it imples at the very LEAST what the Jews acuse Jesus of - “making yourself equal with God”.

The Catholic position is that Jesus is the word, lamb, incarnation, expression, son of God. You can choose any term you like but as John tries to communicate, it is that Jesus is also God, or a part of the one divine God.

Please consider the following sentences.

I love soccer, the one true sport, and all of the great goals that are scored.

I am interested in physics, the one true science, and all of the descriptions of physical laws.

Peace be with you and good luck in your life.

 

[w_stewart]

You are imagining things that do not exist. Cite verses in the scriptures to prove your argument that those so called “SAINTS” are in heaven and can intercede on man’s behalf.

If you have no verses to provide…then it is just figments of the Catholics imaginations and you subscribes to it.

Take note: I am waiting for proofs.

Truth to tell, you simply ignore my posts citing Revelations. If only INC ministers are really after of the truth, you guys would never be misled. Your manner of argumentation is classic among INC debaters. That is the same tactic used by Ventilacion when he debated with Karl Keating. You deny the obvious (e.g. the divinity of Christ), distort the meaning of verses and interpreted them in such a way that they seemingly suit your false doctrines (e.g. God is not man, the angel in the Revelations was your founder, Felix Manalo).

Wake up and come to your senses. Manalo was not an angel.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed, thanks for your participation.