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elwill
Guest
you are wellcome seraphime
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grace_singh
Guest
elwill ~
your words about fear and hope remind me of something i saw once…
i used to teach at a private Islamic school, working with small children.
religious education was a stong part of the cirriculum, and i remember one day when the teacher lead a small group of children into another room for a religious lesson. the lesson was on Jannah (paradise) and hellfire.
one little boy, Issa, proudly and happily iterjected “i always go to Jannah!” whereupon the teacher exclaimed “istagfurullah! how do you know! you can not know, Issa, you may go to the hellfire!”
the look on that little boy’s face… he just got very quiet, his eyes went as big as saucers, and he quietly cradled his face in his hands and didn’t speak for the rest of the lesson. i can only imagine what was going on in his mind…
later, as a Christian, i can see how the Muslim truly as no certainty as to where he or she will go… even if a Muslim does their best to strive hard for Allah in the way of Islam, follows all the rules, prays salah daily, diligently, and sincerely loves Allah for all they’re worth, there is no guarentee they will not go to hell. they just don’t know, though the general statement is that Allah is merciful and forgiving and knows best. still, while keeping those qualities of Allah in mind, one still does not know exeactly where one will go.
there is no promise from Allah, and no concrete certainty.
your words about fear and hope remind me of something i saw once…
i used to teach at a private Islamic school, working with small children.
religious education was a stong part of the cirriculum, and i remember one day when the teacher lead a small group of children into another room for a religious lesson. the lesson was on Jannah (paradise) and hellfire.
one little boy, Issa, proudly and happily iterjected “i always go to Jannah!” whereupon the teacher exclaimed “istagfurullah! how do you know! you can not know, Issa, you may go to the hellfire!”
the look on that little boy’s face… he just got very quiet, his eyes went as big as saucers, and he quietly cradled his face in his hands and didn’t speak for the rest of the lesson. i can only imagine what was going on in his mind…
later, as a Christian, i can see how the Muslim truly as no certainty as to where he or she will go… even if a Muslim does their best to strive hard for Allah in the way of Islam, follows all the rules, prays salah daily, diligently, and sincerely loves Allah for all they’re worth, there is no guarentee they will not go to hell. they just don’t know, though the general statement is that Allah is merciful and forgiving and knows best. still, while keeping those qualities of Allah in mind, one still does not know exeactly where one will go.
there is no promise from Allah, and no concrete certainty.
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elwill
Guest
yes , there is not certain in personal field
i know that God will judge muslims according to thier actions , and i’m certain that some muslims will be punished for their wrong deeds
yet , we don’t have a list for those who will be punished nor do we have list of the names for those who will not be punished
atleast , we are certain that we will be punished if we disbelieved in islam
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grace_singh
Guest
exactly. there is no way to know.
even if you love Allah as much as you are able, pray five times a day every day, fast dutifully for Ramadan, and save up all your life’s earnings to go on Hajj…
even if you memorize the Quran and do a million good deeds in one life time, and do everything possible as a devout Muslim, there is no promise form Allah.
all the works in the world can not save a Muslim, and in the end, the faithful Muslim man or woman is simply uncertain if a life time of sincere efforts will land them in eternal hell fire, because of too many sins.
even if you love Allah as much as you are able, pray five times a day every day, fast dutifully for Ramadan, and save up all your life’s earnings to go on Hajj…
even if you memorize the Quran and do a million good deeds in one life time, and do everything possible as a devout Muslim, there is no promise form Allah.
all the works in the world can not save a Muslim, and in the end, the faithful Muslim man or woman is simply uncertain if a life time of sincere efforts will land them in eternal hell fire, because of too many sins.
yes , there is not certain in personal field
i know that God will judge muslims according to thier actions , and i’m certain that some muslims will be punished for their wrong deeds
yet , we don’t have a list for those who will be punished nor do we have list of the names for those who will not be punished
atleast , we are certain that we will be punished if we disbelieved in islam
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elwill
Guest
are you sure 100% that you are not subjected to the punishment of God ?
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dzheremi
Guest
I am saying that you are right that there are some Christians who are so far on one extreme or the other that they do not follow their religion in a balanced way. This does not mean that we agree on anything other than this.
Hmm. Okay.
Okay.
Elwill, my point is not that Christians do not value a proper balance between love of God and fear of Him. It is that the axis of our faith does not rest on this sort of binary thinking. We know, for instance, of repentance and its importance. We know that after death, it is too late, and we know that while we still have time that God gives us we are not to waste it. This is not really my point. My point is just the same as what I have said in writing against the binary thinking of Islam regarding the relationship of God and man (this master/slave relationship only). Christianity certainly also has fear of God and love of God like Islam does, but it is conceived of differently, and furthermore, it is NOT limited to just those two things. because our God, more than just telling one person (like Muhammad…) to declare this or that about His attributes, has SHOWN us through the suffering, death, and resurrection of His Son exactly what love is. This is the “agape” I mentioned in my earlier post, which Islam does not have. You can read a brief summary of this idea here.
Without that, you cannot begin to understand why and how we differ. And you cannot have that, because Islam explicitly denies John 3:16 through its denial of Christ’s divine sonship, the crucifixion and resurrection, etc. In short, your Allah cannot love you as God does in Christianity, because the Qur’an denies this sort of agape love, replacing it instead with a very different focus on the essential slavery of man as a function of God’s transcendence, rather than the liberation from the same as an affirmation of God’s essential agape love for His creation.
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Monica4316
Guest
okay
thanks for your reply.as Catholics, we are not certain of salvation either because we still need to persevere and then we’ll be saved… but there’s no worry or fear involved in that, we trust Christ, and we believe He’s the one who saves us. So I see what you’re saying… no matter what we do, we still have sins that we need to have forgiven, and we can trust Christ that He will forgive us and give us the grace we need because of the Cross.
if it were not for the Cross, we would not have this trust, and there would be no forgiveness…and all our efforts would be in vain
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elwill
Guest
okay
as Catholics, we are not certain of salvation either because we still need to persevere and then we’ll be saved… but there’s no worry or fear involved in that, we trust Christ, and we believe He’s the one who saves us. So I see what you’re saying… no matter what we do, we still have sins that we need to have forgiven, and we can trust Christ that He will forgive us and give us the grace we need because of the Cross.
although you are not certain from salvation but you don’t fear .
muslims either not certain from salvation , that’s make them fear
muslims have logic reasons to fear , but how you don’t fear if you are not certain 100% ?
the case have nothing to do with trust and hope , because we either trust him and have great hope in his forgivness
anyway, i really pleased with the discussion with you , it was great discussion
and thank you for your respectful manner
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grace_singh
Guest
i am. not because of anything i have done… because nothing we do can impress God, or propell us into His presence.
i know where i will go when i die not because of my good works, but because of what Christ has already done, and because of who i am in Him.
nothing we do, friend, can save us. that is why God became a Man, came down to our level, and did all of the work for us. the only thing left for us to do is to accpet this, place our faith in Christ, and allow Him to change us, and turn us to the Father.
in Christ, elwill, we have grace. not because we have earned it or are good enough, because no one is good enough or deserving. but because God loves us enough to clothe us with His Son’s righteousness, and promise us eternal life.
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grace_singh
Guest
we don’t fear hell, but we do fear God in His awesome power, holiness, and might.
we are not afraid of hell, but we do live in an awareness of the seriousness of sin, and the great and amazing gift of salvation.
we are Christians not because we fear hell and are trying to avoid the fire, but because God first loved us, called us to follow His Son, has promised us eternal life through Him, and has given us His peace.
we fear and love God for what He has done for us, and we look forward to spending an eternity worshipping and adoring God and the Lamb. we are Christians out of gratitude for God’s grace, and have the privelige and honor of simply knowing God as Abba, Father, and walking with Him, in fellowship, love, and assurance.
discipleship is indeed important (following Jesus’ commandments and living as a Christian), but we don’t walk the walk in order to be saved, but because we are saved, alive in Christ, aware of who God is and what His standards are, and guided by His Holy Spirit. those are the fruits one bears after being grafted onto the True Vine (Jesus) by faith through God’s grace.
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wwolverine
Guest
Dear Elwilwell , from my entire discussion with you , i can say that we have commons in our idea about how should people fear God
we just can’t stand in common ground or just we can’t determine the points we are talking about
you think that our only motivation to obey the God is the fearness .
well , it’s not the only motivation for us , their are many types of motivations in our worship
muslims fast in ordinary days although it’s not obligatory ,out of love
mmmm I dont think you have been to arab world have you? Well Muslim fasting is for the world to see, and eventually it makes non muslims fast too, as they shut all the restaurants or public eating is forbidden.
muslims pray extra (salat) in the night although it’s not obligatory out of love
muslims give charity out of love
**mmm but can you pls tell me eventually who this charity goes to? does any of it go to non muslims or the charity supports only muslims? **
muslims also dosn’t steal or cheat or lie or commit adultery out of fear
I dont think you know that the hands were chopped off of those who were caught stealing, which now may not be done, but you certainly have to go to arab world to find which religion the thiefs caught belong to
muslims don’t drink alkohol or deal with usury out of fear
hahaha, thats news to me, are you talking for elwil or all muslims?
and when muslim feels the blessing of God upon them they pray to him and thank him out of gratitude
when he respond to our prayers and bestow his mercy upon us we worship him out of love
You mean you only worship, no Thanks? and you pray only because your prayers were answered? thats selfish.
when we commit a sin , we ask him the forgivness and crying to him out of fear
when we read his warners in quran , we feel fear and ask him to save us
when we read about his mercy upon believers in quran , we smile and pray to God to be among them
every warn and every glad tiding are for us , we dosn’t separate them by saying that this verse talking about me and the other dosn’t
that’s why we worship God out of fear and out of love
we trust him when he say " i am the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful. "
we trust him when he say " My Torment is indeed the most painful torment. "
i intend to make it clear , becuase i feel we repeating our words , and going in circle
the ones I have not marked are general in all religions.
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planten
Guest
Singh, that is not true. It is clear in the Quran that Allah has promised jannah for the believers and doers of good. That is a definite promise and** the promise of Allah never fails**. Yet, our belief is that we all will be saved by the Grace of Allah. That is also the belief of the christians too (i hope). So there is no difference.
Basically, salvation is tied up with:
- The right belief. That is number one and utmost. If belief is wrong, there is no salvation.
- Doing the good deeds as prescribed. That is also necessary. This nullifies the christian belief that they will be saved by faith alone. Good deeds are necessary after good faith.
- The Ultimate truth is that all will be saved by the Grace of Allah, which is needed in this world too for good beliefs and good deeds. Without His Grace, there will not be any good faith or deeds.
Allah says that He has prepared Jannah (Paradise) for the believers and doers of good befitting deeds. So why that is being denied in Islam by the christians?? Our Allah is the Lord of all Creation (1. Rabb il Aalameen).
Here is a new theory. The Abb (father) is no more. We have the Rabb (The Lord).Of course the Lord Creator of all creation is also more loving, more loving than a mere father. Father may be handicapped. Our God has 100 attributes.One of them is “Wadood” which means full of Love.
The other major attributes are:
2. The Rehman, the one who is merciful to all living i.e. plants and animals (including mankind) etc whether they beleive in God or not, whether they are Muslims or christians or Jews or atheists. He is merciful to all of them and they all benefit from the attribute Lord as well as Al-Rehman.
3. The Raheem, the one who is extra merciful to the believers only. The believers, while they get benefit from the mercy of Allah through His attribute Rabb and Rehman, they get extra benefit which atheists do not enjoy. The believer may be a Hindu or christian or Muslim or Jew. They all benefit from Allah’s attribute of Al_Raheem. That means those who believe there is a God and they pray to him for help.
Other animals. dogs and fish and non-human kind do not benefit from Al-Raheem. The Atheists also do not benefit from it.
- Al-Maalik. The Master or Owner. This is another great attribute which is reserved for the vey special believers, saints or prophets. Allah may reward them maximum for their deeds. Allah is the Master of the day of Judgement.He is not te Judge but the Master. Judges need a rule of law for their decisions. Allah is the Master and does not need any directive from any assembly to pass a judgement.
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elwill
Guest
i’m egyption , and find it funny that you think that we fasting for the world to see , amazing response which will be better for me to not comment about
and by the way nonmuslims can eat as they like in their homes , and be sure if christian own a resturant in muslims country where (90 % are muslims ) , he will shut his resturant by his own will , and you can ask any reasonable man why he will do that
both of them , the needy ones
i’m talking about devout muslims
i’m talking about devout muslims
where did i say that this is the only case which make me pray
i know that
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grace_singh
Guest
Planten ~
Allah does indeed promise Jannah for those who do good, who are steadfast in striving hard in the cause of Islam, and who are mindful of him.
but the Muslim can never really know if they have been good enough, have strived hard enough, or remebered Allah as often as as faithfully as they should have. Allah is called al-rahman, al-rahim, al-ghafur, and many other names in the Quran. yet those attributes remain just that.
whether or not they will rescue the Muslim from hell fire and judgement on the day of judgement is not known until that day is reached. or whether the individual’s sins were simply too great, and in the end out numbered the good deeds.
we simply don’t know if we are good enough for Allah. we are told that he is gracious and compassionate, but whether that grace and compassion will apply to us and save us in the end is something we can know only when we face him, and no earlier. there is no promise that those attributes of Allah will actually save the Muslim, and no guarentee that the promises of Jannah will actually apply to the Muslim at the end of their life.
God the Father certainly does live, and reign. He is the One True God, who loves us, cares for us, rebukes us, forgives us in the here and now, and has made promises which are personal and sure, and good for all time. He is the God we can know personally, not just as a series of attributes or names, in the here and now, through His holy, eternal, and risen Son Jesus, His incarnate Word, and our Saviour.
Allah does indeed promise Jannah for those who do good, who are steadfast in striving hard in the cause of Islam, and who are mindful of him.
but the Muslim can never really know if they have been good enough, have strived hard enough, or remebered Allah as often as as faithfully as they should have. Allah is called al-rahman, al-rahim, al-ghafur, and many other names in the Quran. yet those attributes remain just that.
whether or not they will rescue the Muslim from hell fire and judgement on the day of judgement is not known until that day is reached. or whether the individual’s sins were simply too great, and in the end out numbered the good deeds.
we simply don’t know if we are good enough for Allah. we are told that he is gracious and compassionate, but whether that grace and compassion will apply to us and save us in the end is something we can know only when we face him, and no earlier. there is no promise that those attributes of Allah will actually save the Muslim, and no guarentee that the promises of Jannah will actually apply to the Muslim at the end of their life.
God the Father certainly does live, and reign. He is the One True God, who loves us, cares for us, rebukes us, forgives us in the here and now, and has made promises which are personal and sure, and good for all time. He is the God we can know personally, not just as a series of attributes or names, in the here and now, through His holy, eternal, and risen Son Jesus, His incarnate Word, and our Saviour.
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Monica4316
Guest
Elwill, the reason we don’t fear though we’re not certain, is because we believe that Christ is so merciful that He will never reject anyone who is contrite and asks Him for mercy. In the end, our hope is in Christ, and we know we can trust Him.
although you are not certain from salvation but you don’t fear .
muslims either not certain from salvation , that’s make them fear
muslims have logic reasons to fear , but how you don’t fear if you are not certain 100% ?
the case have nothing to do with trust and hope , because we either trust him and have great hope in his forgivness
anyway, i really pleased with the discussion with you , it was great discussion
and thank you for your respectful manner
The only reason we’re not certain is because we still need to persevere. If we’re in a state of grace in this moment (for example, if we just went to Confession and Communion and haven’t done a mortal sin) than we can have the hope of going to Heaven if we die in that moment… what we don’t know is if perhaps we’ll sin in the future and not repent, and lose our faith. But we pray that doesn’t happen and trust God to help us with His grace. He certainly does
God bless
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