Question about Islamic law/rules

[Darrel]

Faith101:

In Islam, in order for someone to be convicted for adultery, than 4 eye witnesses have to testify OR the person themselves admit it. The confession of this woman was the reason for her punishment. The prophet peace be upon him gave her apple oppurtunity to retract her comment, she insisted.

This is the very problem I see with this. This ‘prophet’ is saying “psssst … hey lady if you confess I will have to kill you.” “Go away and pretend like this never happened it will be our little secret”. How can the great prophet mohamed who an entire religion is based on say this?

Should he not have embraced the truth as a servant of God and never desired to hide anything? Are there any Islamic laws that require leaders to not cover up the truth about such grave matters? If God handed him the truth and the entire religion why would he offend God by taking 3 years on a no brainer?

No offense but this kind of shows that the alleged prophet did not mind covering up criminal activity and lying. If somebody walks into a police dept and admits to a crime do they say shhhhhhhh… go away?

-D

 

[meedo]

Peace Darrel,

“My question for you is with regards to killing people who commit adultery as well. Do you feel that all people in Islam agree that they should all die? Or is it starting to become sort of an outdated barbaric practice in civilized Islamic circles?”"

**We cannot Judge the Rules of God and we cannot change them . But hat we can do is make it very hard for these punishments to be taken.

In Islam for the punishment of Fornication to be carried out there must be 4 honest witnesses that sees the act of fornication clearly nearly without any margin of error at all . This is very very hard to apply . If 3 witness confirm and one witness says he isnt so sure but he guesses so then bye bye punishment . This makes it very very hard to carry the punishment but also put deterrance into the people who would think about sinning .

The other part is confession: and this confession is not just to any one , it is to go to the Government authority and confess three times . You can withdraw yr confession any time no problem . The prophet PBUH when a man came to him and told him he sinned he asked him if he washed and prayed with them , the man said yes , the Prophet PBUH said to him that he will be forgiven without asking any further details. Actually the confessor is discouraged to confess and showed ways for repentance. You saw from the story of the lady . Also teh confessor should be assessed for mental health and Psycological and again i said he can withdraw your confession any time .

There is one thing that probably wasnt clarified in the above posts. The prophet PBUH was also a statesman for nation and a ruler . If a person go confesses to the government the government should make the punishment . If you agree with the one you did harm to him on a settlemebt or somthing then fine. But if an issue reaches the governer then he must apply the law. period. That is why the Prophet PBUH would ignore her many many times so that she would have a chance to think again and again and again .
I can never say that it is a barbaric punishment . Yes its harsh punishment and i wouldnt want it foir any body but hey, it keeps people in line and that is great for the society . We are humans , that mean we tend to abuse rights given to us sometimes. I guess if this wasn’t the case then there shouldnt be any need for a police at all . .**

""This is the very problem I see with this. This ‘prophet’ is saying “psssst … hey lady if you confess I will have to kill you.” “Go away and pretend like this never happened it will be our little secret”. How can the great prophet mohamed who an entire religion is based on say this? “”

**This has no problem in it . The ruling of punishment was done to deter and not to punish. This lady really did the society no harm because it was in secret and nobody fealt that sin is taking over or anything . Since she didnt harm the society then she has the option of Just repenting and thats it . But she wanted to do more be cleaned of sin on the spot . No body forced her. For 3 years no body forced her. **

""Should he not have embraced the truth as a servant of God and never desired to hide anything? Are there any Islamic laws that require leaders to not cover up the truth about such grave matters? If God handed him the truth and the entire religion why would he offend God by taking 3 years on a no brainer? “”

**The prophet didnt hide anything . Everey body knows the ruling adn every body knows that he can be forgiven if he truly repents. But of your sin si brought to the government the government has no choice but show the society that it doesnt allow such sin to take over . There was no cover on the truth. He didnt hide her somewhere , it is part of Islamic law that God can forgive easily without punishments there is nothing to hide , but the goovernments dont indulge in that . Its you who take that decision between you and God . The prophet at the time is acting as a governer who fom his responsibilities is ordering punishments . Yes there are islamic laws that prophibit leaders from conclealing teh truth . I dont understand your last phrase . **

to be continued

 

[meedo]

““No offense but this kind of shows that the alleged prophet did not mind covering up criminal activity and lying. If somebody walks into a police dept and admits to a crime do they say shhhhhhhh… go away?””

**He didnt cover any criminal activity . She didnt harm teh society and again the reason for the punishment is detterence and not the punishmentt itself . Islam wants to deter people from sin because of its harms to society . He didnt lie !! where did he lie??

Well the police department checks for his mental health and phsycological health and checks everything around the incident . But because this specific incident i doesnt involve harming other ones then its ok to first consider repenting directly to God. There is no hiding or lying about that .

Plus Jesus dismissed the lady because there wasnt any proofs on her and because she didnt confess and she even didnt confess miltiple times. I gues sthe prophet Muhammed did the same with the man i told you the story about above.

If you ahve any questions please ask me . Thank you .

Peace

Meedo**

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

Yes, Christians are believing in a lie that has been told to them. Allah advises the believers to call Christians back to the truth and out of the misguidance that has reached them. Our duty as Muslims is to call to the truth…as you will see from the verses below.

Because the QURAN said so! What a surprise. And of course that must be God speaking in the Quran because Mohammed said so. Mohammed is trustworthy in saying this because it says right there in the Quran. How do you know it’s God speaking there in the Quran…?

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

Because the QURAN said so! What a surprise. And of course that must be God speaking in the Quran because Mohammed said so. Mohammed is trustworthy in saying this because it says right there in the Quran. How do you know it’s God speaking there in the Quran…?

How do you know it is with God’s help that Jesus was able to cure the blind…and not with the Devil’s help?

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

How do you know it is with God’s help that Jesus was able to cure the blind…and not with the Devil’s help?

Jesus cured the blind by his own power. You can discern Satan’s miracles because they bear bad fruit.

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

Jesus cured the blind by his own power. You can discern Satan’s miracles because they bear bad fruit.

Jesus doesnt do his own will…but the will of the one who sent him.

What do you mean they bear bad fruit? Does it mean that if i meet a christian who believes in his heart and soul that Jesus is the son of God, but yet turns around and murders someone…is that bad fruit. DOes that mean that Jesus was inspired by the devil (may God forgive me for even uttering these words)

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

Jesus doesnt do his own will…but the will of the one who sent him.

He didn’t follow the urges of the flesh, and his will was one and the same as He who sent him so yeah you’re right.

Faith101:

What do you mean they bear bad fruit? Does it mean that if i meet a christian who believes in his heart and soul that Jesus is the son of God, but yet turns around and murders someone…is that bad fruit. DOes that mean that Jesus was inspired by the devil (may God forgive me for even uttering these words)

If he kills someone, then yes that is bad fruit (but not exactly a miracle). What does that have to do with his beliefs about Jesus? It doesn’t matter what he believes, it matters how he lives his life.

I’m actually glad you brought this up because I was wondering whether there really was a difference in the way Catholics and Muslims see the term “faith.” To Muslims, I had heard the term usually just means an acknowledgement that a statement is true. It seems like that may be, so I guess it’s better that I get the terminology straight.

 

[Faith101]

He didn’t follow the urges of the flesh, and his will was one and the same as He who sent him so yeah you’re right.

He said “i dont do my own will” so whose will does he do? “the will of the one who sent me” seems two different wills, one being superior.

There is also the part where Jesus (pbuh) is in the garden, and asks God to relieve him of whatever the people wanted to do with him, but then adds that he will abide by the will of God. Two different wills again.

we can argue this point ad nauseam…nothing will change. i will believe that he was a messenger, and you will believe he is god.

If he kills someone, then yes that is bad fruit (but not exactly a miracle). What does that have to do with his beliefs about Jesus? It doesn’t matter what he believes, it matters how he lives his life.

You say that Jesus (pbuh) performed miracles. I asked how do you know its not by the “power” of the devil. You replied that because the devil’s work bears bad fruit.

What do you believe is the “bad fruit” of Islam? According to what you just said, you cant mention the actions of some muslims (b/c i mentioned the action of a christian and you said that doesnt have anything to do with it)

I’m actually glad you brought this up because I was wondering whether there really was a difference in the way Catholics and Muslims see the term “faith.” To Muslims, I had heard the term usually just means an acknowledgement that a statement is true. It seems like that may be, so I guess it’s better that I get the terminology straight.

Faith is that you affirm your belief in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil.

The prophet mohamed (pbuh) said that faith has between 60-70 branches, the most excellent (highest) is that you affirm the fact that there is no one worthy of worship but Allah and the most humblest is that you remove a harmful object from the path of others. Modesty is also a branch of faith.

There are countless hadith that talk about faith and the one who has it, or the one who doesnt.

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, “**None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself.” ** (Book #2, Hadith #12)

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

we can argue this point ad nauseam…nothing will change.

Then you should probably stop bringing it up.

Faith101:

You say that Jesus (pbuh) performed miracles. I asked how do you know its not by the “power” of the devil. You replied that because the devil’s work bears bad fruit.

What do you believe is the “bad fruit” of Islam? According to what you just said, you cant mention the actions of some muslims (b/c i mentioned the action of a christian and you said that doesnt have anything to do with it)

The first thing I need to say is that the labels “Christian” and “Muslim” do nothing for us here; the only thing to look at is what results (i.e. the “fruits”) from following a specific teaching or executing certain actions. A person killing someone (for it’s own sake) is wrong no matter who did it. If you witnessed something like that you would know how terrible it was of that person to commit murder, regardless of whether you knew what religion to label him at that moment.

Your first error was assuming that if someone just “believes in his heart and soul” that Jesus is the son of God was all there was to Christianity, which is far from true.

Second, the only way an action of random murder could possibly be attributed to someone’s adherence to Christianity is if somewhere the Church taught that it was good (or even morally acceptable) to kill someone for no reason. Otherwise, what good reason is there to say that Christianity was the “tree” that bore this “fruit” of random murder?

As for asking me what do I think are the “bad fruits” of Islam, don’t try to trap me with that. I never stated such a thing to begin with, and I’m nowhere near familiar enough with everything that orthodox Islamic teaching states to make that kind of judgement now anyway.

 

[Faith101]

Then you should probably stop bringing it up.

you’re right. I will try, inshAllah.

Your first error was assuming that if someone just “believes in his heart and soul” that Jesus is the son of God was all there was to Christianity, which is far from true.

I dont believe that that is all there is to Christianity…but it is the core belief onto which everything else is built upon.

Second, the only way an action of random murder could possibly be attributed to someone’s adherence to Christianity is if somewhere the Church taught that it was good (or even morally acceptable) to kill someone for no reason. Otherwise, what good reason is there to say that Christianity was the “tree” that bore this “fruit” of random murder?

I agree. If the scripture itself supported the killing of innocent people.

As for asking me what do I think are the “bad fruits” of Islam, don’t try to trap me with that. I never stated such a thing to begin with, and I’m nowhere near familiar enough with everything that orthodox Islamic teaching states to make that kind of judgement now anyway.

Then how do you know that it was other than God that revealed the Quran to Mohamed (pbuh)? (i’m asking you the same question you asked me, only in the negative)

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

I agree. If the scripture itself supported the killing of innocent people.

Well, unless the church taught it as a matter of faith it wouldn’t exactly be an article of belief. People’s personal interpretation of scripture is not guaranteed as a matter of faith and isn’t part of Christian belief… But I’m in danger of derailing the post here, so if further discussion is needed here it should probably be started in a new topic.

Faith101:

Then how do you know that it was other than God that revealed the Quran to Mohamed (pbuh)? (i’m asking you the same question you asked me, only in the negative)

I’m not claiming omniscience here… There’s no way I can give you an exhaustive study of every fact in relation to Mohammed and the Quran and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his book is most definitely NOT from God. On the other hand, this doesn’t prove that anything he said WAS from God either. A book by itself only confirms the its own existence and nothing more, regardless of bad fruits or lack of them.

Anyway, why would you ask me about how to discern miracles if it was only going to be applied to something like the words in the Quran? I never said that something completely natural and humanly possible like dictating a book was necessarily either from God or the devil.