Question about John 3:5 & salvation

[thetazlord]

When my Baptist minister mentors couldn’t make their point, they would just keep repeating their erroneous traditions over and over and/or louder and louder at Sunday School or wherever.

thetazlord. You repeating over and over, “the Catholic interpretation of John 3:5 is a self-contradiction” isn’t going to do it.

You underlining more words isn’t going to do it either.

You arguments are just not persuasive.

I already showed (here) why your claims of Catholic self-contradiction are bogus.

---

Your routine about awaiting moderator permission before you can tell us what you think the real mysterious meaning of what John 3:5 “really means” in and of itself should tell you something.

These are a lot of nice “theories” about me, but this thread isn’t about what “you think” that “I think.” It has to do with my original question in my OP, that neither you, nor anyone else has been able to address. So rather than engage in personal accusations - real or false - & create Red Herrings, how about actually staying on topic & answering the question of my OP, and answering in context of what I actually asked? I’m all for it! So far, that has not happened.

BTW, I’ve personally contacted a moderator, but as of this date & timing, no one has responded back to me. So, until then, I don’t want to post something that might be misinterpreted as “proselytizing,” rather than using Scripture to explain Scripture, and in context, that doesn’t contradict the words of our Lord in John 3:5,7. I’ve seen Protestants & other non-catholics here receive infractions & get banned for merely quoting Scripture, with explanations based on those Scripture passages that contradict “official Catholic doctrine.” So, out of respect for CAF, & my genuine desire to not violate forum rules, until I receive permission from a moderator, I won’t post it. If you wish to ask me privately, let me know. Until then, we have to patiently wait. Believe me, I’m as anxious as you are for me to post it too.

 

[thetazlord]

Water is meant to symbolize death before being reborn in Christ through the Holy Spirit. For instance, an unbaptized martyr could be baptized by fire/blood through his real death for confessing faith Jesus Christ.

When people were baptized, they were dunked under water. They were symbolically drowned. This is because water represents the abyss. It symbolizes death. In order to be reborn, you have to die first. This is why in ancient christian iconography, baptism shows the water for baptism as this dark cavernous pit or abyss that looks like it is going to swallow the person. It is why Peter compares it to the Flood where Noah was saved through it (1 Pet. 3:20).

This is why Paul says:

“Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.”
Col 2:12

“For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.”
Rom 6:4

“Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death?”
Rom 6:3

If you don’t die, you cant be reborn in Christ.

Right, but none of this addresses that “if” the water in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism, then “how” can UNbaptized people, like martyrs, enter Heaven, since Jesus is saying “born of water & the Spirit” is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God.” This is what I’ve been asking since the OP, which so far noone has given me an answer to.

 

[stewstew03]

Right, but none of this addresses that “if” the water in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism, then “how” can UNbaptized people, like martyrs, enter Heaven, since Jesus is saying “born of water & the Spirit” is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God.” This is what I’ve been asking since the OP, which so far noone has given me an answer to.

Because baptism, while normative, isn’t the only means of salvation. See CCC 1281.

Hope this helps.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

Right, but none of this addresses that “if” the water in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism, then “how” can UNbaptized people, like martyrs, enter Heaven, since Jesus is saying “born of water & the Spirit” is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God.” This is what I’ve been asking since the OP, which so far noone has given me an answer to.

The unbaptized martry does not need the matter of water to point to death. They physically died for Christ, and were reborn. Baptism by fire or blood etc. So the matter of water is really one way of pointing to death before being reborn in Christ. You can die any number of ways, but there is only one way to be reborn in Christ. That is through the Holy Ghost. For normal people, we are buried in Christ’s death through the waters of baptism. But the scripture also says “he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.” which is to say that it may not always be water that is the figure of death.

 

[fhansen]

It’s irrelevant because regardless of “how” you believe Scripture was compiled together, the fact remains that ALL Scripture - including the NT - is God-breathed. Therefore, God-breathed Scripture can’t be wrong, because that would be like saying that God Himself is wrong, which is impossible & anti-scriptural.

So, since the God-breathed Scripture can’t be wrong, & Jesus says in God-breathed Scripture:

“UNLESS one is born of water & the Spirit, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of God”
“You MUST be born again (born of water & the Spirit”

…then “if” the ‘water’ refers to the waters of baptism & since Jesus is using EXCLUSIVE language (“Unless,” “cannot,” “must”), then ‘how’ can an UNbaptized person “enter the kingdom of God”? This is the question I have asked from the beginning that no one has been able to answer without contradicting the EXCLUSIVE language Jesus uses in God-breathed Scripture.

“God-breathed” does *not *necessarily mean human-understood-and this fact is attested to by the myriad of interpretations and theologies derived from Sola Scriptura. You simply cannot build a theology on one verse-even if that theology wasn’t at direct odds with the consistent teachings of the ancient churches.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

So, then are you saying that “one-millisecond” before a person dies Jesus comes & baptizes people - with water - who are “worthy”? And you’re admitting that this “belief” of yours is supported “without traditional catholic support”??? So, you’re going beyond what your own church even professes about water baptismal salvation? Beyond your own personal “belief,” & since this same “belief” is “without traditional catholic support,” what do you base this “belief” on, other than yourself?

I base it on my Faith that God can do all things, something you clearly deny.
I have NOT gone beyond what my Church professes, which you falsely claim,
The Holy Roman Catholic Church Proclaims That
ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THROUGH GOD.
unlike your church which clearly proclaims that only things written in your
edited bible can be believed.
Back up your claim by showing me in your churches scripture
that baptism at the moment of death is impossible.

since this same “belief” is “without traditional catholic support,” what do you base this “belief” on, other than yourself?

I base it on something that causes weak minded self professing no nothings to run screaming from the ONE TRUE FAITH, I base it on faith in God Almighty.

I am not hiding in a private interpretation cult. I am not waving around
a pathetic excuse as a good enough reason to desert.
I am not one who claims that he has the answers yet shows no proof of them.
You have never actually answered questions to the satisfaction of any of us.
I have seen here, many people give answers that are correct and satisfactory to all who understand. but how do we show the truth to the imperceptive?
how do we satisfy the deliberately ignorant.

You are the one who now states that God cannot do all things unless it is written in your protestant scripture. So prove it. or admit that God can do all things and that having Faith in this, does not mean that it must be word for word in scripture.

 

[Xeyed818]

Water is meant to symbolize death before being reborn in Christ through the Holy Spirit. For instance, an unbaptized martyr could be baptized by fire/blood through his real death for confessing faith Jesus Christ.

When people were baptized, they were dunked under water. They were symbolically drowned. This is because water represents the abyss. It symbolizes death. In order to be reborn, you have to die first. This is why in ancient christian iconography, baptism shows the water for baptism as this dark cavernous pit or abyss that looks like it is going to swallow the person. It is why Peter compares it to the Flood where Noah was saved through it (1 Pet. 3:20).

This is why Paul says:

“Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.”
Col 2:12

“For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.”
Rom 6:4

“Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death?”
Rom 6:3

If you don’t die, you cant be reborn in Christ.

“Die before you die. There is no chance after.” - CS Lewis

“Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death?” - Rom 6:3

What if God confers us ‘Dead Christ’ at Baptism - who must then Rise, per Paul:

1Cor. 15:17 - And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

A long while back, I was in this strange group which didn’t like women very much, from a spiritual angle, at least. Before joining, I was told that, in search of Truth, they did not spare exploring the evil of women. Thinking they might have Answers to this common opinion, I joined. (No answers, but plenty of ‘proof’ .)

Anyway, a few things stuck in my mind from that experience. One was their observation of “Vitruvian Man”, where an enlarged pic shows a lamb’s (?) head at groin level (left side). They then pointed out the Bible verses that imply men with labor pains; that Christ may be born of man next time.

But, perhaps, it’s Michelangelo’s way of saying that ‘dead Christ’ lay concealed within man, ready to Rise?

Or, since “all men are created equal” - perhaps all men are born with concealed Christ - but God, with Baptism done in His Son’s name, opens the Inner Ear to some degree?

I occasionally wondered about the Bible verses that made it sound like Jesus and the Holy Spirit were the same Entity.

1Cor. 15:44 - It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body… 45 And so it is written, “the first man Adam became a living being.” the last Adam became a Life-giving Spirit." … 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

If “Vitruvian Man” had the image on the right side, maybe we’d have the answer to the purpose of the appendix? And Paul’s ‘thorn in the flesh’?

Yes, well…back to less fanciful excursions.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

“Die before you die. There is no chance after.” - CS Lewis

Excellent quote.

 

[fhansen]

Right, but none of this addresses that “if” the water in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism, then “how” can UNbaptized people, like martyrs, enter Heaven, since Jesus is saying “born of water & the Spirit” is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God.” This is what I’ve been asking since the OP, which so far noone has given me an answer to.

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.” 1 Pet 3:18-22

Baptism saves us by the cleansing of sin; death to the old life, resurrection to the new. That’s just the way God done it; through grace. We can always spurn Him though.

 

[Abu]

Thetazlord in #56 states “the NT was written IN Greek, not Aramaic.”

But, as Claude Tresmontant, who taught medieval philosophy at the Sorbonne and was awarded the Maximilian Kolbe prize in 1975 for his work, states in *The Hebrew Christ *(Translated by Kenneth D Whitehead, Franciscan Herald Press, 1989, p319) – “all four of the Gospels….were evidently translations into Greek from earlier texts originally composed in Hebrew.”

This is the first of his errors.

The second error is in disregarding Christ who wrote nothing but gave us His Catholic Church which is “the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1Tim 3:15). Thus, Christ’s Catholic Church collected and authorized various writings which She gave us as the Sacred Scriptures which cannot, without error, be interpreted contrary to Her teaching.

Part of Christ’s teaching through His Church, as has been pointed out, is that “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” [CCC #1260].
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1260.htm

The third error is thus disregarding the teaching of Christ’s Church for a personal view.

 

[AndrewW94]

Your interpretation of cannot as meaning “has no power to” is actually quite close to the Church’s teaching. Baptism is the only way that we know of for man to enter Heaven. In other words, man has no power to enter Heaven apart from Baptism. This does not mean that there is no other way for God to bring man to Heaven. But we don’t know of any.

**Note that the verb here is active. “One cannot enter” as opposed to “one cannot be brought.” The natural reading is that the only thing I can do to enter Heaven (I, ME) is to be Baptised of water and the Spirit. This is exactly what the Church teaches. ** Even here, God is the primary cause, but there is a sense in which man cooperates in this that is not equivalent to the other ways God can bring man into heaven. So it is quite reasonable to use the active voice for the ordinary means while extraordinary means can be regarded as more specifically God’s action, where we could say “can be brought.”

 

[PRmerger]

For what reason do you resist this teaching? The church, east and west, has understood Jesus’s words from the beginning to mean that He desires baptism, just as He desires our repentance, just as He desires our faith-none of them are forced upon us.

Indeed.

It is curious when folks–almost exclusively Protestant folks–take one verse in isolation of the Word of God in its entirety, and base their soteriology on this one verse. While excluding all the rest. Very peculiar indeed!

This is how Catholics profess we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)

 

[Gorgias]

I have NOT gone beyond what my Church professes, which you falsely claim

Well… given that you claim that this will happen, you actually have gone beyond what the Church teaches.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church Proclaims That ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THROUGH GOD.

Well, then… I might suggest that it makes more sense that you might claim that what you suggest is possible with God, not that this will happen. Is it ‘possible’? Yes. Is it what the Church proclaims ‘will happen’? No.

Back up your claim by showing me in your churches scripture that baptism at the moment of death is impossible.

Shouldn’t we, likewise, ask you to back up your claim by showing that what you say will happen, is precisely what the Church claims will happen?

I am not one who claims that he has the answers yet shows no proof of them.

Erm… kinda, you are.

 

[Cathoholic]

Thetazlord. You said (here):

. . . .none of this addresses that “if” the water in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism, then “how” can UNbaptized people, like martyrs, enter Heaven, since Jesus is saying “born of water & the Spirit” is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God.” This is what I’ve been asking since the OP, which so far noone has given me an answer to.

I am surprised you keep saying this thetazlord. I (& others) have already told you how the Church DOES address this situation but you have not listened. Your question has been answered.

I have told you we Catholics take John 3:5 very literally and affirm it wholeheartedly.

JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I explained to you that is WHY the Church can teach this . . . .

CCC 1257b . . . . The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” . . .

Yet that SAME verse, ALSO says this is for US.

Nicodemus represents US thetazlord.
Nicodemus represents you and I thetazlord.
Nicodemus represents mankind thetazlord.

Not quite JOHN 3:5 but close Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say TO YOU thetazlord, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Or

Not quite JOHN 3:5 but close Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say TO YOU Cathoholic, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Or

Not quite JOHN 3:5 but close Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say TO YOU mankind, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

This warning is for US. Jesus is giving a directive here for US regarding Baptism–not making an observation about it.

And the Church takes it very seriously.

CCC 1257b . . . . The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude

---

That being said: Jesus is NOT addressing this to Himself. He is addressing this to you and I.

Jesus does NOT say:

Not JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say TO ME, God almighty . . .

Jesus is God. God is not being addressed here—WE are.

Therefore the Church while taking care “not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.”” also sees hope for those who through “no fault of their own” have not followed through on this commandment, but have strived to embrace the grace given them.

CCC 1257c . . . God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

VATICAN II (From Lumen Gentium Section 16) . . . and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation. Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.

---

Your point thetazlord about me (here) supposedly not thinking what you think John 3:5 is, is irrelevant.

These are a lot of nice “theories” about me, but this thread isn’t about what “you think” that “I think.”

Your point thetazlord about me supposedly not thinking what you think is, is irrelevant. WHY?

Because I am not focusing upon “what you think” John 3:5 is. (after you corrected me on that)

I am addressing what you’re DENYING John 3:5 is—baptism. I am not responding to “what you think” John 3:5 is.

And as I have said earlier, it doesn’t matter what this phantom interpretation of John 3:5 is of yours.

If your interpretation is diametrically opposed to and not in harmony with 2000 years of Christianity’s “interpretation” of John 3:5, it needs to be rejected.

---

Don’t you see? Only pride could come up with an interpretation that is antithetical to 2000 years of Christian history thetazlord. I don’t like telling you this stuff, but I care about you and others enough to firmly take issue with what you are denying here.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Well… given that you claim that this will happen, you actually have gone beyond what the Church teaches.

Well, then… I might suggest that it makes more sense that you might claim that what you suggest is possible with God, not that this will happen. Is it ‘possible’? Yes. Is it what the Church proclaims ‘will happen’? No.

Shouldn’t we, likewise, ask you to back up your claim by showing that what you say will happen, is precisely what the Church claims will happen?

Erm… kinda, you are.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa
I never actually meant to state that this will 100% happen, though I can see that it can read that way,
you are correct in saying that I needed to word that better. I have below with the simple addition of the word (can).
how one simple word makes all the difference. Thanks.
Purgatory Pete:

My uneducated, untrained non-Scriptural but 100% trust in my ROMAN CATHOLIC FAITH answer to your question is that every single soul faces two judgments General(final) and Particular.
I Hereby claim without scriptural or traditional catholic support that at one millisecond before death snatches us away, The lord CAN deliver the particular judgement and offer everyone found worthy the sacrament of Baptism.

Pete…Standing Corrected.:doh2:

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Thetazlord,

I apologise to you as well. (re: post #64)
The sentence can clearly be taken as “WILL” happen.
that was not my intent.

sorry for not phrasing the sentence correctly.
Mea culpa.

Pete.:doh2: Thanks again Gorgias:manvspc:

 

[PRmerger]

This post is the perfect example why “Sola Scriptura” and “private interpretation” don’t work. If anyone of us analyze the text in isolation we can deduce a lot of different explanations about John 3.

Egg-zactly.

 

[PRmerger]

I am surprised you keep saying this thetazlord. I (& others) have already told you how the Church DOES address this situation but you have not listened. Your question has been answered.

Indeed.

The position is the very Catholic Both/And.

I find the either/or position to be quite peculiar here. It seems to follow the paradigm of atheists and Muslims who also take one verse, in isolation, and offer a hard-lined approach to doctrine.

• “Either Jesus is God OR he’s a man! Look at this verse here!”*
  “Either God is just OR he’s merciful! Look at this verse here!”
  “Either God commands killing OR he condemns killing! Look at this verse here!”
  “Either this is symbolic OR it’s literal!”

Catholics simply respond with: yes. Both/And.

 

[thetazlord]

Because baptism, while normative, isn’t the only means of salvation. See CCC 1281.

Hope this helps.

Then if it’s “normative,” then it would contradict the required words of Jesus in John 3:5,7 (“unless,” “cannot,” “must”) on how to “enter the kingdom of God.” If something is “normative” then it’s not “required.” Since Jesus is God, He can’t say something is “required” & then go back & say it’s “normative” & allow UNbaptized people into Heaven. This is what happens with interpreting the “water” in John 3:5 to refer to the waters of baptism.

Hope that helps as well.

 

[thetazlord]

The unbaptized martry does not need the matter of water to point to death. They physically died for Christ, and were reborn. Baptism by fire or blood etc. So the matter of water is really one way of pointing to death before being reborn in Christ. You can die any number of ways, but there is only one way to be reborn in Christ. That is through the Holy Ghost. For normal people, we are buried in Christ’s death through the waters of baptism. But the scripture also says “he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.” which is to say that it may not always be water that is the figure of death.

You’re still not getting the dilemma. As a former Catholic, I understand what being baptized by desire & of blood means. But since Jesus is using EXCLUSIVE language in John 3:5,7 (“Unless,” “cannot,” “must”) to explain “how” to “enter the kingdom of God,” then if that refers to water baptism, then Jesus would be saying water baptism is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God”:

"UNLESS one is baptized in water (interpretation) & the Spirit, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)
"You MUST be born again - baptized in water (interpretation)"

Do you see the problem now?