Question about Joining Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter TikiTokiguy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
…Of course, in order to be forgiven the penitent would be required to make restitution for what he had stolen insofar as it is possible but never with the obligation to reveal that he was the thief from what I understand. In other words, he has to fulfill his duty to restitution so long as it would not damage his good name.
Just to be clear, since we have a non-Catholic with questions about confession: This is not true. Absolution does not come with strings attached. If you are truly sorry, then you are forgiven. As a matter of morals you should try to make the restituution or the Priest may suggest restitution as penance, however it is never a requirement for absolution.
 
Just to be clear, since we have a non-Catholic with questions about confession: This is not true. Absolution does not come with strings attached. If you are truly sorry, then you are forgiven. As a matter of morals you should try to make the restituution or the Priest may suggest restitution as penance, however it is never a requirement for absolution.
Actually, the penitent is lacking the necessary disposition (contrition and also firm purpose of amendment it seems) if he is unwilling to make restitution. If he does not intend to make the restitution, he is never forgiven, for he lacks the proper disposition for the Sacrament. If he intended to make restitution at the time of absolution but never actually does it, he was validly absolved (because of his intention) but then commits a mortal sin of retaining the possessions (in other words, he is guilty of stealing them again, basically). This is why it is best to make restitution as soon as possible (even before confession, if it is convenient, e.g., if you steal $100 from a stranger’s purse on a train and then repent of your sin, you must return it immediately lest you are unable to find the person in the future; in such a case, you would have an obligation to give the money to the poor). Generally speaking, of course, it is most important to go to confession as soon as possible after any mortal sin.
 
Anyway, the church I go to has RCIA classes but I was told it could take two years. I could go to to another RCIA class and get through it in a year. Is one year generally the right amount of time for RCIA?
The parish where they do the 2- year RCIA process is the one more likely to be following the Vatican’s guidelines on other things, as well, since it is from the Vatican that they are telling us to start using the 2-year form of the process. 🙂

However, the 2 years or 1 year designations are just descriptions of the teaching style of the RCIA and not necessarily an indication of how long it will actually take - for myself, I was in the 1-year RCIA process for 17 years. 😃

Part of my problem was the fact that the 1 year process starts in September, whereas the Holy Spirit has a tendency to speak to me during the month of January - so I was always unable to start the process, although I did the January to March section several times over (but because I had missed the September to December portion, I was not eligible to continue after the start of Lent). 🤷

If I had gone for the 2 year process instead (which can begin at any time of the year) I would have probably finished my RCIA much more quickly. 🙂
Also, coming from a Protestant background, how is one “saved” in the Catholic church? Is it through belief in Christ or must you also do good works?
It’s through participation in the Sacraments, which is why RCIA is such a big deal (it is a process of spiritual preparation for the Sacraments and for the Catholic lifestyle) and why it is essential to attend Mass every Sunday, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) on a regular basis, and certainly whenever it is necessary. The RCIA process will prepare you for both of these, and also for your Confirmation and for the other Sacraments, as well. 🙂
Finally, why do Catholics admit sins during confession? Is that the only way to be cleaned of sins or can you also simply pray and ask God to forgive you?
If you break your relationship with God entirely by means of a mortal sin, then attending Confession is the only normal way to get back into communication with God.

Think of it this way: if your internet connection goes out, you can’t communicate with the world wide web, until after you call your ISP, explain your problem to him, and have him walk you through the steps for fixing your problem, as well as restoring your connection at his end. That’s pretty much what the priest does, when we sin and break our relationship with God. By means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, the priest restores our relationship with God.
 
The parish where they do the 2- year RCIA process is the one more likely to be following the Vatican’s guidelines on other things, as well, since it is from the Vatican that they are telling us to start using the 2-year form of the process. 🙂
Really? That’s sad. I also heard recently of a parish in South Carolina that is requiring a FULL YEAR (???) before allowing a couple to marry. It is a shame that Catholics and those wishing to be united to the only barque of salvation are being denied the sacraments. It is typical of modern man (and especially Americans, which is why the Vatican’s two-year program is quite the surprise–I could see this from the USCCB) to create a “program” and bunch everyone into with “without exception”! It is just ridiculous. I wouldn’t mind it as much if parishes were not so dogmatic about the arbitrary number chosen by whom I do not know. I do know dozens of people who know the faith better than most priests. There is no need to require them to wait months (and certainly not a year) to receive the sacrament of matrimony. Have these people ever heard of occasions of sin? They probably are unfamiliar with the teachings of moral theologians who traditionally said to court or date someone for more than six months could not be excused from mortal sin because of the unnecessary occasion of sin it required for the couple. (That being said–just as St. Pius X’s judgment on temporary vows for religious did–there could be a longer period of courtship as a concession to modern man’s indecision, but there really is no cause to extend the entire relationship, including engagement, more than a year. The nearly universal 6-month engagement period makes this nearly impossible.) My comments apply equally to those who desire to be received into the Church and have the knowledge and convictions necessary after a short period of time.
 
Actually, the penitent is lacking the necessary disposition (contrition and also firm purpose of amendment it seems) if he is unwilling to make restitution. If he does not intend to make the restitution, he is never forgiven, for he lacks the proper disposition for the Sacrament.
Sorry, my brother, I have to respectfully disagree here, that is not the way I see it or the way it has been taught to me. Let me explain:

The penitent must by “properly disposed” according to Canon Law, and if the Priest does not doubt that disposition then absolution cannot be withheld. Now, what does “properly disposed” mean? It means contrition. Contrition, according to the catechism means "“sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.” (i.e. firm purpose of amendment). That sorrow may or may not draw on my conscience to repay the debt, but it is only the sorrow that I have hurt God that is requried to be forgiven.

No where is it requried that restitution is required for absolution as far as I can see.

Now, the catechism does remind us under the seventh commandment “In virtue of commutative justice, reparation for injustice committed requires the restitution of stolen goods to their owner” and I would agree that knowingly failing in that may be cause for additional mortal sin, but it is not required for absolution.

I think that is good, for God would not want someone, I think, to be denied the graces of the sacrament if they are not physically able to repay what they have taken or could not do so without turning themselves in.

P.S. - to the OP, don’t be dismayed when you see Catholics with different viewpoints on topics. It is why Jesus gave us a living Church with a Pope and magisterium so that we can dicusss these points that affect our salvation and get good guidance on them.
 
Sorry, my brother, I have to respectfully disagree here, that is not the way I see it or the way it has been taught to me.
Not a problem at all, my friend, and no need to apologize. I gathered that from your first response, but I studied this in seminary, so you can trust that I learned what the Church authentically teaches about this issue. In fact, if you have the time, I encourage you to consider any of the innumerable manuals of moral theology that are available (many, alas, out of print–though still available at your local Catholic university, I would think). They all will address this principle very clearly.
The penitent must by “properly disposed” according to Canon Law, and if the Priest does not doubt that disposition then absolution cannot be withheld.
This is not correct. Even if a priest is certain (as far as is possible) that a penitent has the appropriate dispositions, he may still refuse absolution if he judges that this would be better for the penitent (especially for relapsing sinners, in order to show them the gravity of their sin and to encourage them to make greater efforts at amending their lives–but even this circumstance is not necessary; the priest is judge in the confessional and must make the judgment he sees best for the penitent). Furthermore, what is required to be properly disposed may or may not be in Canon Law. I’m not sure if it is exhausted by the new code because I haven’t read that particular section, but properly disposed refers to fulfilling all the duties of the penitent: contrition, firm purpose of amendment, sufficient examination of conscience, accounting the sins to the priest (insofar as it is possible), intention to do (and eventual completion of) the penance imposed. This constitutes the matter of the Sacrament (most specifically, sin is the matter, though all these things are necessary dispositions for the matter to be “presented” properly. A form without matter is not a Sacrament. St. Alphonsus Liguori (simply to take the most illustrious example, for he is the Doctor of Moral Theology, the greatest moral theologian in the history of the Church) explains all of what I just said in depth in his Theologia Moralis (5 volumes).
That sorrow may or may not draw on my conscience to repay the debt, but it is only the sorrow that I have hurt God that is requried to be forgiven.
No where is it required that restitution is required for absolution as far as I can see.
The necessary restitution that is absolutely required for every sin against justice (if mortal, it binds under pain of mortal sin, if venial, under pain of venial sin), also falls under the penance required by the penitent, whether not the priest specifically mentions this in the confessional. Not to be repay what one has taken unjustly is a sure sign that the penitent is not disposed and, de facto, makes the penitent unworthy and unable to receive absolution for his sins if the sin against justice be mortal.
Now, the catechism does remind us under the seventh commandment “In virtue of commutative justice, reparation for injustice committed requires the restitution of stolen goods to their owner” and I would agree that knowingly failing in that may be cause for additional mortal sin, but it is not required for absolution.
It absolutely is. I highly recommend picking up an introductory moral theology manual. In fact, I believe one is available from TAN Books, but I couldn’t find it on their website. Hopefully, it didn’t go out of print, too.
I think that is good, for God would not want someone, I think, to be denied the graces of the sacrament if they are not physically able to repay what they have taken or could not do so without turning themselves in.
Restitution is only required insofar as it is possible. If someone steals $1M and spends it all, he can’t very well pay it back, but he has a strict obligation in justice sub gravi to pay back whatever he possibly can (within reason and the direction of his confessor). Likewise, as I mentioned in my first comment, no one has an obligation to ruin his good name (turn himself in), though he must find another way to make restitution. The simplest way is to send his very confessor (or another priest) with the necessary funds to repay the debt. The priest would never give any circumstances but simply tell the one against whom the penitent sinned that he should take the money, and that’s all he can say or that someone said to give him the money. I know multiple priests who have done this very thing on several occasions. It is actually not uncommon at all.
 
IC - thanks for the more thorough reply. I have also heard of Priests refusing absolution due to repeated sins showing no firm resolution to sin again (e.g. the one who confesses using ABC and tells the Priest they have no intention of stopping).

I am trying to wrap my head around the idea that “Not to be repay what one has taken unjustly is a sure sign that the penitent is not disposed and, de facto, makes the penitent unworthy and unable to receive absolution for his sins if the sin against justice be mortal.”

I understand what you are saying however I am not sure in my own heart that the de facto argument holds, however in fairness, I will accept that you have a deeper understanding than I do so rather than reply I will have to read some on this and do some thinking as well as speak to my pastor.

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.
 
Thank you, too, for the discussion. Let me know what he has to say after you’ve had some time to think about it and ask him about it, if you have the time.
 
Iv’e been told I need to learn about the Catholic lifestyle. I don’t get that. What exactly would I have to learn?
 
Iv’e been told I need to learn about the Catholic lifestyle. I don’t get that. What exactly would I have to learn?
This isn’t “head knowledge” - you already know in your head that you are supposed to pray in the mornings and in the evenings, and at meal times, and to attend Mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation.

But the time spent in RCIA will make these things into habits that you do without having to think about it - they will become part of your flesh and bones, and you’ll come to a point where you won’t be able to remember ever not doing them, they will have become so much a part of who you are as a person, so that when you come to the Sacraments, there won’t be anything strange about taking up the Catholic lifestyle - you will have already been doing it for several months, and it will come naturally to you. 🙂
 
Iv’e been told I need to learn about the Catholic lifestyle. I don’t get that. What exactly would I have to learn?
This is very hard to define. It’s the je ne sais quoi of a Catholic. I can almost always recognize a cradle Catholic from a convert (with some exceptions, usually among intellectuals). Most people who have grown up Catholic in a Catholic country would concur about that. In America, it’s not as true because Catholics act a lot more like Protestants because of society. I believe it was Chesterton who said that it takes three generations to make a Catholic (that is, a Catholic with the je ne sais quoi of Catholic life). He would know, being a convert himself. All I can say is that the more time you spend with good, large Catholic families, the better off you will be in this respect. If you read about the cultural history of Italy, France, Spain, etc., you will also be able to pick up a lot of this. Above all, work against any Calvinistic or Puritanical tendencies you may have. I’ve found these to be quite common among (especially Protestant) converts in the US. For those who have a lax conscience, the precise opposite is usually the case, but I haven’t met as many of them. I would guess it’d be even more important for them to adapt than for the Puritans.
 
What are Calvinistic and Puritanical tendencies?
It’s hard to explain.

A legalistic approach to law and life in general. Not considering things in their purpose or end but simply because “that’s how it is” or “that’s what the law says.” There are exceptions to anything that is not intrinsically evil, basically, so long as the exception takes into consideration the end of the thing itself (it’s purpose).

Puritanical… not accepting the good things of this earth as good. Pleasure is good in moderation. The body is not evil in itself (e.g., nude Baroque art is completely fine). Alcohol is good. Tobacco is good. Food is good. Clothes are good. A nice house is good. These things are all good in themselves. If they are abused, they become bad. (N.B., I’m not saying cigarettes are good; there is so much stuff added in them today that it’d be hard to justify their frequent use, but I’m just speaking in general.)

Also, a proper respect for the clergy of the Church and the distinction between the role of the clergy and the laity. This continues to be blurred in modern times very much, which will make it more difficult for converts to grasp the concept.

Balance is a good thing to remember, too. Life is about a lot of different things. The end is to save your soul, but there are a lot of things that help you achieve that. It’s not all about prayer or all about studying the faith or all about x, y, or z devotion we like. We have to do recreation, too. I think “balance” is the real key to everything, to be honest, and you can only get that sort of balance from experiencing what it’s like with good Catholics on a day-to-day basis. It’s hard to find people that fit this mold anymore, but it’s the best advice I can give you, really. As I said, I highly recommend the study of the Mediterranean Catholic cultures. This will really put things into perspective. Whenever I read the lives of the saints, especially the post-Tridentine saints and especially in Italy, some little thing here or there will pop out about their way of life that will continue to develop my understanding of this. It’s all about putting things into their proper context. I hope that helps to some degree. God bless you, and please be assured of my prayers for you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top