Question about Mary and excesses

[Non_Serviam]

I’ve read and posted on a few threads of late regarding the idea of praying to Mary and the Saints. Earlier today I read the following post on another thread devoted to the topic.

1234,

Do you think a little child needs to be educated and understand the latin differences between dulia and hyper dulia in order to love Mary without giving her the worship that is due to God alone?

The question caught my attention and started me thinking.

I thought about children I had known who were going to make their First Communion of Confession and how in some cases they had to be taught proper practice and respect, as well as what the activity actually meant and was supposed to be accomplishing.

Likewise, the Epistles speak often to new (and not so new) believers about correcting errors in their belief or practice. I Corinthians on behaviour during the Eucharist, Galatians on legalism, etc.

In light of this, I thought that it was possible that at least some children might need to be corrected for “overenthusiastic” responses to Mary that might stray over the line into the honour reserved to God alone, and likewise some new believers might end up in the same situation, with their honest efforts ending up as excesses. Latin might not be the most effective way to communicate the differences, between proper and excessive adoration but the differences might need to be communicated.

What I’d like to ask Catholics is whether you believe such instruction/correction with regard to Mary might be necessary for children and/or new believers and if yes, have you ever seen it happen?

If no, why do you believe instruction/correction isn’t necessary for this particular part of your faith?

Thanks.

 

[Hesychios]

I’ve read and posted on a few threads of late regarding the idea of praying to Mary and the Saints. Earlier today I read the following post on another thread devoted to the topic.

Do you think a little child needs to be educated and understand the latin differences between dulia and hyper dulia in order to love Mary without giving her the worship that is due to God alone?

There is always a danger that a person will have excessive zeal for a creature of God in the person of some saint or angel. Good catechesis should prevent that, but it seems obvious to me that in many cases it has not.

Marian devotion has had it’s excesses, this is an historical fact. Measures should be in place to prevent that but there does not seem to be. Instead, one sees an open-ended encouragement in Marian devotion, as if a bit too much is considered preferable to a bit too little.

New Christians should very clearly understand that St Mary of Nazareth is a real human person whom we can emulate if we wish and even love like a friend or mother. But she is not the Saviour of the World.

I am afraid the finer points of dulia, hyper-dulia and latria are quite beyond the capability of most children to discern with any form of surety. The distinctions are not even clear to many adults, and the explanation very often tends to resemble a type of double-talk.

 

[LilyM]

There is always a danger that a person will have excessive zeal for a creature of God in the person of some saint or angel. Good catechesis should prevent that, but it seems obvious to me that in many cases it has not.

Marian devotion has had it’s excesses, this is an historical fact. Measures should be in place to prevent that but there does not seem to be. Instead, one sees an open-ended encouragement in Marian devotion, as if a bit too much is considered preferable to a bit too little.

New Christians should very clearly understand that St Mary of Nazareth is a real human person whom we can emulate if we wish and even love like a friend or mother. But she is not the Saviour of the World.

I am afraid the finer points of dulia, hyper-dulia and latria are quite beyond the capability of most children to discern with any form of surety. The distinctions are not even clear to many adults, and the explanation very often tends to resemble a type of double-talk.

Well, certainly they should be catechised before they get to the point of the ‘Mary is God’ movement - which it cannot be stressed too much is TOTALLY heretical and against everything the Church teaches and stands for campus.udayton.edu/mary//newheresy.html :bigyikes:

But I think especially with children it would be difficult to explain the finer points, as has been said earlier. Suffice to say that anything short of actually calling Mary divine or offering her the principal and ultimate form of worship, the Sacrifice of the Mass, isn’t a real worry.

Interesting side note - I was watching footage the other day from the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. It had her husband Prince Philip taking his oath of loyalty to her, and in the wording he swore to be ‘your liegeman … in earthly worship’. Interesting how senses of a word can be lost in such a short time!

Perhaps use of the term ‘earthly worship’ where appropriate (ie in older texts which are more hyperbolic in their language) might make the Catholic position on Mary clearer?

 

[Cluny]

Keep children AND adults to be faithful to APPROVED devotions to our Most Holy Theotokos, such as the Rosary, Litanies, Akathist Hymn, Paraclisis, and the like

 

[Corki]

The question caught my attention and started me thinking.

I thought about children I had known who were going to make their First Communion of Confession and how in some cases they had to be taught proper practice and respect, as well as what the activity actually meant and was supposed to be accomplishing.

Likewise, the Epistles speak often to new (and not so new) believers about correcting errors in their belief or practice. I Corinthians on behaviour during the Eucharist, Galatians on legalism, etc.

In light of this, I thought that it was possible that at least some children might need to be corrected for “overenthusiastic” responses to Mary that might stray over the line into the honour reserved to God alone, and likewise some new believers might end up in the same situation, with their honest efforts ending up as excesses. Latin might not be the most effective way to communicate the differences, between proper and excessive adoration but the differences might need to be communicated.

What I’d like to ask Catholics is whether you believe such instruction/correction with regard to Mary might be necessary for children and/or new believers and if yes, have you ever seen it happen?

If no, why do you believe instruction/correction isn’t necessary for this particular part of your faith?

Thanks.

I think children grow in this instruction and distinction. I don’t think that a child at the age for First Communion, around age 7, can have an “over-enthusiastic” response to Mary. At that age it is really neither honor nor worship but just enthusiastic love.

By example, when I volunteer in my kids’ school, I see kids in the younger grades. When their parents are in school, they break formation and run up to their mom or dad with a squeal and a hug. Sometimes, I get the hugs from the little kids too even though I am not related to them. When I am in the middle grades, I get a hug from my own son but a more respectful greeting from his friends. Does this mean the little ones confuse how they feel about me with how they feel about their parents? Of course not. They just express affection within the limits of their young understanding.

As children get older, they will learn through their religious education and more importantly through the faithful practice of the faith how there are differences in prayer and attention paid to God, the angels, Mary and the Saints. No correction is needed, refinement in understanding will develop naturally.

 

[Non_Serviam]

Thanks to Hesychios for an Orthodox point of view, and to LilyM for telling me exactly what she thought excess might consist of-it helps me understand how much distance there is between our concepts of things.

Thanks also to Cluny for examples of appropriate channels of Marian devotion and to Corki for your explanation as to why you feel it’s unlikely excesses would occur.

In an interesting turn of events I came across this book on Mary in Google Books-it proving to be an interesting survey of belief.

Any other comments or opinions on the topic-anyone have experience with someone being disciplined for excesses? Anyone have thoughts on how this applies to new believers/converts?

Thanks.

 

[Peter_J]

Well, certainly they should be catechised before they get to the point of the ‘Mary is God’ movement - which it cannot be stressed too much is TOTALLY heretical and against everything the Church teaches and stands for campus.udayton.edu/mary//newheresy.html :bigyikes:

My thoughts were slightly different. Don’t get me wrong, I agree that Mary-is-God is blatant heresy and therefore dangerous; but I don’t think too many people will buy into it. I would be more worried about subtler forms of error.

I’m reminded of an anecdote that Dr. Mark Miravalle told. A Protestant came to a Catholic and asked “How can Mary be mother of the Father?” The Catholic replied “You have to believe.” I don’t recall exactly what comments Dr. Miravalle made about the incident, but I think it’s pretty easy see the application: the Protestant and the Catholic both had a misconception about Church teaching, namely they thought that “Mother of God” meant “Mother of the whole Trinity”. (As best as I can remember, the point Dr. Miravalle was making was that it isn’t enough for Catholics to be well-meaning, we must also be sure to have a proper understanding of Catholic teaching.)

On the other hand, if the Catholic in this anecdote had been approached by the Mary-is-God movement … well, it’s pretty hard to imagine him being taken in, unless he was a very silly Catholic.

P.S. Sorry if I’m getting too far from the topic (i.e. children).

 

[puzzleannie]

I think such instruction should be directed at the parents and family, from whom children are much more likely to learn prayer and devotional practices. In over 20 years of preparing children for sacraments and RE in general I have never seen an instance of children “straying over the line” in devotion, but I have heard them repeat many misconceptions derived from their parents. The most common is the assumption that each image of the Blessed Virgin represents a separate individual person, that there are in effect several “Mary’s”.

Why this choice of forum since devotion to Mary is not a feature of most non-Catholic religions (other than the Orthodox of course but their practice is not the topic of this thread).

 

[Bill_Pick]

There is always a danger that a person will have excessive zeal for a creature of God in the person of some saint or angel. Good catechesis should prevent that, but it seems obvious to me that in many cases it has not.

Marian devotion has had it’s excesses, this is an historical fact. Measures should be in place to prevent that but there does not seem to be. Instead, one sees an open-ended encouragement in Marian devotion, as if a bit too much is considered preferable to a bit too little.

New Christians should very clearly understand that St Mary of Nazareth is a real human person whom we can emulate if we wish and even love like a friend or mother. But she is not the Saviour of the World.

I am afraid the finer points of dulia, hyper-dulia and latria are quite beyond the capability of most children to discern with any form of surety. The distinctions are not even clear to many adults, and the explanation very often tends to resemble a type of double-talk.

If GOD came through her to us, then why can’t we go through her to Him?

 

[Non_Serviam]

My thoughts were slightly different. Don’t get me wrong, I agree that Mary-is-God is blatant heresy and therefore dangerous; but I don’t think too many people will buy into it. I would be more worried about subtler forms of error.

I’m reminded of an anecdote that Dr. Mark Miravalle told. A Protestant came to a Catholic and asked “How can Mary be mother of the Father?” The Catholic replied “You have to believe.” I don’t recall exactly what comments Dr. Miravalle made about the incident, but I think it’s pretty easy see the application: the Protestant and the Catholic both had a misconception about Church teaching, namely they thought that “Mother of God” meant “Mother of the whole Trinity”. (As best as I can remember, the point Dr. Miravalle was making was that it isn’t enough for Catholics to be well-meaning, we must also be sure to have a proper understanding of Catholic teaching.)

On the other hand, if the Catholic in this anecdote had been approached by the Mary-is-God movement … well, it’s pretty hard to imagine him being taken in, unless he was a very silly Catholic.

P.S. Sorry if I’m getting too far from the topic (i.e. children).

Thanks for your contribution Peter. While children are part of the Op, I was also interested in new believers/converts. In looking at the Miravalle book I linked to in a previous post, I’ve been able to see that he makes a definite effort to draw lines where he believes the appropriate beliefs about Mary to be. (I would draw some of the lines differently, but it’s nice to be able see where he does this, just as you and LilyM have also done).

Thanks.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I have actually never seen this in a child, or any kind of heretical misconceptions about the nature of God or the saints. Sure, there are intellectual misunderstandings, but the hearts of children are pretty pure, and I really can’t think of one single child I have ever known that had an excessive view of any saint or angel.

On the other hand, my children had intuitively picked up a special understanding of both God the Father and Jesus through Mary, which is just exactly what adults are supposed to understand.

My children would get these beautiful smiles on their faces and say, “Blessed Mother”, and knew who was God and was not God.

 

[Non_Serviam]

I think such instruction should be directed at the parents and family, from whom children are much more likely to learn prayer and devotional practices. In over 20 years of preparing children for sacraments and RE in general I have never seen an instance of children “straying over the line” in devotion, but I have heard them repeat many misconceptions derived from their parents. The most common is the assumption that each image of the Blessed Virgin represents a separate individual person, that there are in effect several “Mary’s”.

Why this choice of forum since devotion to Mary is not a feature of most non-Catholic religions (other than the Orthodox of course but their practice is not the topic of this thread).

Interesting point about directing the instruction. I’ve also heard it said that someone should pray to “Our Lady of x”, “Our Lady of y” and Our Lady of z" as if they were different. It’s nice to get a contribution from someone with lots of first hand experience in dealing with children-have you had any experiences with new Catholics?

As for why this forum, there have been several threads on here where what is appropriate with regard to Mary and what is excessive have been a main point of discussion. I posted here to find out from from the Catholics who’ve been posting in the Non-Catholic forum what their thoughts were on the topic in the hopes of better understanding the different perceptions of the issue. I recognize that another forum might generate more responses, but the point of view of those respondents might be different.

Thanks for your insights.

 

[Non_Serviam]

If GOD came through her to us, then why can’t we go through her to Him?

Thanks for contributing. If possible could you share some more of your experiences related to the OP? Thanks

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I’ve read and posted on a few threads of late regarding the idea of praying to Mary and the Saints. Earlier today I read the following post on another thread devoted to the topic.

The question caught my attention and started me thinking.

I thought about children I had known who were going to make their First Communion of Confession and how in some cases they had to be taught proper practice and respect, as well as what the activity actually meant and was supposed to be accomplishing.

Likewise, the Epistles speak often to new (and not so new) believers about correcting errors in their belief or practice. I Corinthians on behaviour during the Eucharist, Galatians on legalism, etc.

In light of this, I thought that it was possible that at least some children might need to be corrected for “overenthusiastic” responses to Mary that might stray over the line into the honour reserved to God alone, and likewise some new believers might end up in the same situation, with their honest efforts ending up as excesses. Latin might not be the most effective way to communicate the differences, between proper and excessive adoration but the differences might need to be communicated.

What I’d like to ask Catholics is whether you believe such instruction/correction with regard to Mary might be necessary for children and/or new believers and if yes, have you ever seen it happen?

If no, why do you believe instruction/correction isn’t necessary for this particular part of your faith?

Thanks.

That’s a good question.

Here’s a clarifying quote from the Catechism:

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

 

[CB_Catholic]

Thanks to Hesychios for an Orthodox point of view, and to LilyM for telling me exactly what she thought excess might consist of-it helps me understand how much distance there is between our concepts of things.

Thanks also to Cluny for examples of appropriate channels of Marian devotion and to Corki for your explanation as to why you feel it’s unlikely excesses would occur.

In an interesting turn of events I came across this book on Mary in Google Books-it proving to be an interesting survey of belief.

Any other comments or opinions on the topic-anyone have experience with someone being disciplined for excesses? Anyone have thoughts on how this applies to new believers/converts?

Thanks.

Many years ago (about 20 or so) there was a Marian prayer group around here that was disciplined by the Bishop for excesses. I don’t remember the details.

And about the same time, when I was working in the ICU, security had to be called at my Catholic hospital because of a group that was trying to force their way into the ICU with a very large cloth with an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on it that they wanted suspended over a young patent’s bed from the ceiling. The patient wasn’t even Catholic, and the family was extremely upset. The group was loud, unruly, and rather nasty and had to be evicted off the hospital property. It disrupted the flow of the ER and the ICU. This might have been the same group, I don’t recall, but it was a nasty scene, and not a very good Catholic witness. Pastoral care had their hands full that night, trying to deal with them and the family. I would consider that an excess.

 

[ncgolf]

What I’d like to ask Catholics is whether you believe such instruction/correction with regard to Mary might be necessary for children and/or new believers and if yes, have you ever seen it happen?

If no, why do you believe instruction/correction isn’t necessary for this particular part of your faith?

Thanks.

This happened to me in about 1966 … my father left for an overseas assignment during the Vietnam war, my mom and my 3 brothers lived in my grandmothers town … maybe 5000 people, I was in the 2nd grade. After my dad left … I would get ill at school … every day … my stomach would be in knots so my grandmother came and got me and took me to her house. I didn’t know this but they were very worried about my health. This happened 4 straight days so on Friday my grandmother says …Lets say a rosary, so we did … I then proceeded to fall asleep and when I awoke I felt fine … and never again was troubled by those pains.

My grandmother was a daily Mass goer and probably prayed the Rosary daily … she was very devout as was my Dad’s mother. I learned first hand the intercessory power of Mary …though at the time I would not have been able to put Mary a proper theological context. A few other things happened through the intercession of Mary in my life but that was the first.

Me … I think kids will be fine … I was … better to have Mary in your life than not … I know and appreciate who and what Mary is better today than then … but then I had the faith of a child … something I miss.

 

[Hesychios]

If GOD came through her to us, then why can’t we go through her to Him?

That’s fine, as far as I am concerned…

So long as it is perfectly clear that we don’t necessarily have to.

*Michael

*http://www.conventofsaintelizabeth.org/byzicons/hp/pantocrator.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for your contribution Peter. While children are part of the Op, I was also interested in new believers/converts. In looking at the Miravalle book I linked to in a previous post, I’ve been able to see that he makes a definite effort to draw lines where he believes the appropriate beliefs about Mary to be. (I would draw some of the lines differently, but it’s nice to be able see where he does this, just as you and LilyM have also done).

Thanks.

Thanks, NS.

Regarding the OP …

In light of this, I thought that it was possible that at least some children might need to be corrected for “overenthusiastic” responses to Mary that might stray over the line into the honour reserved to God alone, and likewise some new believers might end up in the same situation, with their honest efforts ending up as excesses.

I think it could go either way. I.e. overenthusiastic responses to Mary might “stray over the line into the honour reserved to God alone”, or on the other hand a overemphasis of “We only worship God” (which is a true statement of course) might lead children or new believers (or old believers for that matter) to forget to honor Mary and the other saints.

 

[emarc]

in my experience as a catechist to school kids i had to correct some of their misunderstanding between worshiping and honoring the Blessed Mother. but what impress me is their quick grasp of how to properly honor her. she truly relates to these kids as any loving mother does to her children.
God bless.

 

[Non_Serviam]

That’s a good question.

Here’s a clarifying quote from the Catechism:

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut-in your experience have you found that people tend to properly understand this teaching or is correction needed in some cases?

Many years ago (about 20 or so) there was a Marian prayer group around here that was disciplined by the Bishop for excesses. I don’t remember the details.

And about the same time, when I was working in the ICU, security had to be called at my Catholic hospital because of a group that was trying to force their way into the ICU with a very large cloth with an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on it that they wanted suspended over a young patent’s bed from the ceiling. The patient wasn’t even Catholic, and the family was extremely upset. The group was loud, unruly, and rather nasty and had to be evicted off the hospital property. It disrupted the flow of the ER and the ICU. This might have been the same group, I don’t recall, but it was a nasty scene, and not a very good Catholic witness. Pastoral care had their hands full that night, trying to deal with them and the family. I would consider that an excess.

As surprising as it may sound to you, I’m quite certain that a number of non-Catholics would feel at least slightly less uptight on the topic of Mary if they heard of incidents like this-that there is a line and that someone is there to keep people on the right side of it. Some would still respond negatively, but I think this would have a positive influence on some of them.

This happened to me in about 1966 … my father left for an overseas assignment during the Vietnam war, my mom and my 3 brothers lived in my grandmothers town … maybe 5000 people, I was in the 2nd grade. After my dad left … I would get ill at school … every day … my stomach would be in knots so my grandmother came and got me and took me to her house. I didn’t know this but they were very worried about my health. This happened 4 straight days so on Friday my grandmother says …Lets say a rosary, so we did … I then proceeded to fall asleep and when I awoke I felt fine … and never again was troubled by those pains.

My grandmother was a daily Mass goer and probably prayed the Rosary daily … she was very devout as was my Dad’s mother. I learned first hand the intercessory power of Mary …though at the time I would not have been able to put Mary a proper theological context. A few other things happened through the intercession of Mary in my life but that was the first.

Me … I think kids will be fine … I was … better to have Mary in your life than not … I know and appreciate who and what Mary is better today than then … but then I had the faith of a child … something I miss.

Interesting personal experience-I’m glad things turned out well for you-thanks for sharing