Question About Mary ??

[Pixie_Dust]

Thank you Pixie Dust.
Especially for challenging this arrogant person about his or her ability to know whether you have repented of your sins or not.
These extreme fundamentalists are so arrogant and presumptuous that it is absolutely sickening. Sickening.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

Well, it helps that I spent the ages of 19-33 as an arrogant and presumptuous fundamentalist, myself.

 

[Mannyfit75]

kujo and believers are just your typical** Anti-Catholic Protestants**. As you can see, you notice that they are completely arrogant about the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Because it is written. duh.
We can read about other historical figures, too. Moses, King David, George Washington, Martin Luther King.

All because somebody wrote it down for later generations to read.

True, ALL GENERATIONS shall call her blessed, but ALL GENERATIONS can be blessed, too!

Even you.

Cool. So we agree completely.

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking4:
Yes the Church the Catholic Church made the Bible. They put together all the 46 OT and the 27 NT in the Council of Hippo, then Council of Carthage in 396 A.D, this same list include in the Council of Florence which was an Ecunemical Council in 1430 AD with both the Patriarch of Constantinople, and during the reformation, the Council of Trent affirmed all Scripture as inspired or canonical.

You can read this Where we got the Bible? Our debt to the Catholic Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

In response to partridge about the use of until I have a great example from a book I read my kids. The book is called I love you forever, and it talks about a relationship between the son and the mother throughout life. It states, " that two year old grew and he grew and he grew until he was two years old". Now obviously this kid did not stop growing after he became two years old, but continued to grow into adulthood. So the use of until is not a concrete use of the meaning. So is the same with this passage of the bible. Also Jesus says “I will be with you until the end of time”, He isn’t going to leave us after time ceases.

My dearest wife, I love you with all my heart and I will honor you until the day I die…

…after which I am completely free to do as I please.

Love,

Your faithful (for now) husband.
xxxoooxxx

:tiphat:

 

[Mannyfit75]

The best way to answer that is to compare what the church looked like in the NT with churches today. What you don’t see in the NT church are many of the doctrines and practices of the roman church.

Really, the early Church in the Books of Acts gather weekly the first day of the in the breaking of the Bread.

THe Catholic Church does this by celebrating Mass every Sunday in our liturgy. It also had collections just like the Catholic Church. They also have Real Presence, the Last Supper, they have Confessions, Baptism, Annoining the Sick, Holy Orders, etc.

We know the Catholic Church was before the Bible for such cases.

In Acts, during the Road to Damascus, Jesus said to Saul, “Saul, Saul, why are you presecuting me?”

Ok, we know Saul as a Pharisee persecuted the infant Christian Church then. This was before the was written. The Book of Acts, was written 20-30 yrs after the resurrections. It was not gather together with other scroll or parchments until 300 yrs later in the Council of Carthage and Hippo. It would the list in Canonical Books in the Bible the CC would use in the Council of Florence, and Trent.

If you look at earlier translation of the Bible prior to the Reformation, you will find the Bible has the Deutrocanonical Books, which the Protestant Bible does not have.

If you go by that logic, there weren’t ALTER CALLS in the Bible either…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Turn to Jesus in faith and repent. There’s no other way. You are being deceived to think that the flesh means wafer. Jesus said His flesh is meat. Meat, as defined by Jesus, is doing the work of God. And, the Work of God is believing on Him. Jesus also said that if we believe on Him we shall have everlasting life.

Sarx.

What is the meaning of the Greek word, sarx, and why is this important?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I agree because this is all about wether you accept Christ or not. It’s a Heaven or Hell thing. Smoking or non-smoking for eternity.
In the end, you have to answer to God to wether you accepted His Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of your sins or not.

We accept him every day and especially on Sunday when we accept him - body, blood, soul and divinity - in the Eucharist.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Booklover;2313723:

Is ANYBODY worthy of Heaven? Is there ONE out there that does not need a Savior? IF Mary was saved from sin the way the RCC says, then Paul is wrong by saying that “all have sinned” and you call him a liar.
Jesus was born of a woman who needed a Savior just like you and I today.

THAT, my friend, is another reason why the birth of Jesus was a miracle from God and a fulfilled prophecy.

Kujo-

You are in error due to a misunderstanding…let’s clear this up once and for all, okay?

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Jesus is part of the “ALL”…but he never sinned. Neither did Mary.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Mannyfit75]

We accept him every day and especially on Sunday when we accept him - body, blood, soul and divinity - in the Eucharist.

In Addition, recall the Words at Mass,
People:

Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World, have mercy on us.

Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World, have mercy on us.

Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World, grant us peace.

priest:

This is the Lamb of the God, who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to His Supper.

People:

Lord, I am not worthy to received you but only say the Word and I shall be healed.

In the Mass we do received Jesus Christ! Alleluia!!! You can only find Him in the CC and the Orthodox Church…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Booklover;2313723:

Is ANYBODY worthy of Heaven? Is there ONE out there that does not need a Savior? IF Mary was saved from sin the way the RCC says, then Paul is wrong by saying that “all have sinned” and you call him a liar.
Jesus was born of a woman who needed a Savior just like you and I today.

THAT, my friend, is another reason why the birth of Jesus was a miracle from God and a fulfilled prophecy.

Kujo-

You are in error due to a misunderstanding…let’s clear this up once and for all, okay?

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Jesus is part of the “ALL”…but he never sinned. Neither did Mary.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Booklover;2313723:

Is ANYBODY worthy of Heaven? Is there ONE out there that does not need a Savior? IF Mary was saved from sin the way the RCC says, then Paul is wrong by saying that “all have sinned” and you call him a liar.
Jesus was born of a woman who needed a Savior just like you and I today.

THAT, my friend, is another reason why the birth of Jesus was a miracle from God and a fulfilled prophecy.

Kujo-

You are in error due to a misunderstanding…let’s clear this up once and for all, okay?

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Jesus is part of the “ALL”…but he never sinned. Neither did Mary.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is ANYBODY worthy of Heaven? Is there ONE out there that does not need a Savior? IF Mary was saved from sin the way the RCC says, then Paul is wrong by saying that “all have sinned” and you call him a liar.
Jesus was born of a woman who needed a Savior just like you and I today.

THAT, my friend, is another reason why the birth of Jesus was a miracle from God and a fulfilled prophecy.

Kujo-

You are in error due to a misunderstanding…let’s clear this up once and for all, okay?

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Jesus is part of the “ALL”…but he never sinned. Neither did Mary.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

quote=kujo313;2314680]

Is ANYBODY worthy of Heaven? Is there ONE out there that does not need a Savior? IF Mary was saved from sin the way the RCC says, then Paul is wrong by saying that “all have sinned” and you call him a liar.
Jesus was born of a woman who needed a Savior just like you and I today.

THAT, my friend, is another reason why the birth of Jesus was a miracle from God and a fulfilled prophecy.

Kujo-

You are in error due to a misunderstanding…let’s clear this up once and for all, okay?

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Jesus is part of the “ALL”…but he never sinned. Neither did Mary.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

According to your weird “Christian” beliefs since he got his humanity from a sinner, he must have been a sinner as well. You can’t have it both ways!

Vickie

Nice catch. :clapping:

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you believe water baptism washes away your sin then you are truly deceived.

If you believe baptism does not wash away sin, then you are truly ignorant of the word of God.

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

 

[Mannyfit75]

Nice catch. :clapping:

Booklover’s logic make sense…

 

[Randy_Carson]

It was not the Roman catholic church that wrote the NT. It did not exist then. Again, God used the church at the time to discover the canon. The source of the canon (God) is what gives its authority and power and not a church.

Justasking4-

The Church was called Catholic in writing as early as 110 AD, and the author, Ignatius of Antioch, did not say, “Hey, I’ve got an idea…why not call our new Church the ‘Catholic Church’”?

Instead, his casual reference to the Catholic Church indicates that the term had been in use generally for some time. This is interesting because the Apostle John was alive until around 85 AD.

Thus, the Church may have been called “Catholic” during the lifetime of one of the Twelve.

Here…take a look for yourself:

Ignatius of Antioch

“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist, which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2. [110 A.D.]).

Ignatius was a disciple of John, so we have to consider his writing on great authority…

The Catholic Church wrote the Bible…there was no other at the time.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

It really doesn’t. My point is that we have no physical evidence for all kinds of people in the NT and would it be reasonable to conclude they were all taken to heaven?

Is there an ancient tradition that any other person was assumed into heaven?

:nope:

Sorry, but your point is pointless.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The best way to answer that is to compare what the church looked like in the NT with churches today. What you don’t see in the NT church are many of the doctrines and practices of the roman church.

Please don’t type your responses in the middle of a quoted passage…it makes it impossible for us to respond to you on a point by point basis. You need to open and close your quotes around each separate section by typing first passage second passage etc. Of course, you need to use ] instead of < >.

Now, to the point…

According to your logic, your baby pictures must have a mustache and several fillings in your teeth - otherwise, you cannot possibly be the same person since you do not look identical in your infancy to your current appearance.

Unless we have the oral tradition of your family to provide a living transmission of your growth, of course…