Question About Mary ??

[jmcrae]

Could you explain why that is?

Because Christ had not yet instituted the Sacrament of Marriage.

 

[THurifer2]

i think the point is “i have not had sexual relation how can i be pregnant”. she was betrothed to be married before she bacame pregnant. why would she stay a virgin and deprive her husband of being a father

Can I ask you a question based on your statement? Can pregnant women have sex?

 

[LilyM]

Remember, in Jewish society at this time arranged marriages were the norm. This may have been the case for Joseph and Mary - they may not have chosen each other. I’m sure it sometimes happened with arranged couples that they weren’t attracted physically to each other and so ended up not consummating the relationship. So marriage didn’t automatically result in sex

Also remember that in those days, as jmcrae says, women simply didn’t live on their own even if they wanted to. Remember Christ on the cross requesting John to look after Mary, and he taking her into his house?

So again, you can see that there would have been ‘marriages’ that were done solely for the purpose of providing male protection for the woman, that may not necessarily have been physical unions.

 

[Priest34]

The angel was not telling her that she was already pregnant. (She wasn’t - not at that point.)

He was telling her that she would some day become pregnant, *in the future. *

The point that people are trying to get across is that most young brides don’t need a heavenly visitation to let them know that they are going to become pregnant some day in the future.

Mary’s response, “How will this happen, since I know not a man?” indicates that she had not been planning to have sex with Joseph, or anyone else. The future that she has planned for herself does not include pregnancy.

The above is the most idiotic thing I have ever come across. The most logical answer is Mary and Joseph hadn’t married yet, thus,"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? There is no indication at all that Mary was planning on remaining a virgin, none whatsoever.
And your comment concerning young brides may be accurate but it certainly isn’t when it concerns one that is only engaged.

 

[LilyM]

The above is the most idiotic thing I have ever come across. The most logical answer is Mary and Joseph hadn’t married yet, thus,"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? There is no indication at all that Mary was planning on remaining a virgin, none whatsoever.
And your comment concerning young brides may be accurate but it certainly isn’t when it concerns one that is only engaged.

It is entirely accurate - obviously you’ve never been an engaged woman Believe me, if an engaged woman were told she was going to have a child OF COURSE her first thought would be of her husband-to-be and the wedding night. In the normal course of things, that is.

 

[Priest34]

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

Joseph took her into his home under the protection of marriage in order to preserve her vow of virginity, since she was no longer allowed to remain at the Temple, now that she was of marriageable age. If people thought she was already married, they would not force her into a marriage that she didn’t want.

Remember, back then, women were often regarded as property. Her desire to remain a virgin all her life would not have been understood by others around her, and, since her parents were elderly, they would not be around to protect her all of her life.

The above comment is one of dishonesty. Joseph didn’t take Mary in to protect her vow or preserve her vow of virginity. Joseph took her in because of the influence of the message of the angel. He had two choices, either believe the angel or believe that Mary committed adultery. Obviously he chose to believe the angel.

 

[LilyM]

The above comment is one of dishonesty. Joseph didn’t take Mary in to protect her vow or preserve her vow of virginity. Joseph took her in because of the influence of the message of the angel. He had two choices, either believe the angel or believe that Mary committed adultery. Obviously he chose to believe the angel.

How on earth can you say this? Were you there? Did you ask him why he was marrying Mary and what he planned to do afterwards?

 

[Priest34]

It is entirely accurate - obviously you’ve never been an engaged woman Believe me, if an engaged woman were told she was going to have a child OF COURSE her first thought would be of her husband-to-be and the wedding night. In the normal course of things, that is.

** It isn’t accurate because obviously Mary thought what the angel Gabriel was proclaiming was going to be an immediate event and something that was going to happen even before her wedding day.**

 

[Priest34]

How on earth can you say this? Were you there? Did you ask him why he was marrying Mary and what he planned to do afterwards?

**I can say it because it is what is written but then you catholics rather rely on tradition than the written Word of God **

 

[LilyM]

** It isn’t accurate because obviously Mary thought what the angel Gabriel was proclaiming was going to be an immediate event and something that was going to happen even before her wedding day.**

‘Obviously’??? What’s obvious about it? The angel certainly didn’t say she was going to conceive immediately. You’re reading it in hindsight. You know that Mary DID conceive immediately. Mary certainly didn’t have anything to go on which would lead her to assume any of what you know happened. Think of what past examples Mary DID have to draw on. Abraham and Sarah, the parents of Samuel and Samson. All of these were natural conceptions - man and wife. And Isaac especially took some time to appear after Abraham and Sarah were told they would conceive.

So it certainly wouldn’t have been obvious to Mary. Her own words show that she thought she’d need a man to father the child at least! She didn’t think it was going to be a supernatural conception - hence her asking about a man. She thought the child would need a father. Fathering a child in the natural way takes some time! Like I said, her first thoughts, if she was thinking of having a normal marriage, would have been of Joseph.

As for you ‘knowing’ that Joseph intended a physical union with Mary after marriage - you are the one who is reading your own preconceptions into the Gospel. Where is it written that this is what Joseph intended and that it happened? And beware of the word ‘until’. In the language the Bible was written in it DOESN’T automatically mean that Joseph had relations with her AFTER Christ was born.

 

[Priest34]

‘Obviously’??? What’s obvious about it? The angel certianly didn’t say she was going to conceive immediately. You’re reading it in hindsight, knowing that Mary DID conceive immediately.

Mary certainly didn’t have anything to go on which would lead her to assume this. Think of what past examples Mary DID have. Abraham and Sarah, the parents of Samuel and Samson. Not Elizabeth, because the angel told her about her cousin. But all of these were natural conceptions - man and wife. And Isaac especially took some time to appear after Abraham and Sarah were told they would conceive.

So it certainly wouldn’t have been obvious to Mary. Her own words show that she thought she’d need a man to father the child at least! She didn’t think it was going to be a supernatural conception - hence her asking about a man. She thought the child would need a father. Fathering a child in the natural way takes some time!

**This is starting to get comical. “she thought the child would need a father”…lol. I stand on my conviction(s), Mary thought what was spoken would happen immediately and prior to her wedding day. That much is clear **

 

[LilyM]

**This is starting to get comical. “she thought the child would need a father”…lol. I stand on my conviction(s), Mary thought what was spoken would happen immediately and prior to her wedding day. That much is clear **

Which exact words of the angel is it, then, pray tell us since you’re so much more intelligent than I, that would make it ‘clear’ to Mary that she would conceive immediately??? As opposed to a few months when she was married? The answer is none of 'em.

To be sure the angel says ‘you will conceive a child’. But the angel immediately follows with ‘He will be known as … He will be …’ - did any of THOSE predictions about the child come true immediately? Of course not. So why would Mary think the conception would happen immediately?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

**I can say it because it is what is written but then you catholics rather rely on tradition than the written Word of God **

The written Word of God is also a Catholic Tradition. It was the Catholic Church that sifted through all the circulating Gospels and other letters and determined which of those belonged in the Bible. If you accept the Catholic Church’s authority to determine which Gospels and Epistles were Sacred Scripture and which ones were junk, why do you not think the Church knows how to interpret those books?

If you’re truly here to learn, I encourage you to spend some time looking over the links I provided above. I especially recommend listening to “One Church” which can be downloaded FREE from the Bible Christian Society.

 

[Priest34]

‘Obviously’??? What’s obvious about it? The angel certainly didn’t say she was going to conceive immediately. You’re reading it in hindsight. You know that Mary DID conceive immediately. Mary certainly didn’t have anything to go on which would lead her to assume any of what you know happened. Think of what past examples Mary DID have to draw on. Abraham and Sarah, the parents of Samuel and Samson. All of these were natural conceptions - man and wife. And Isaac especially took some time to appear after Abraham and Sarah were told they would conceive.

So it certainly wouldn’t have been obvious to Mary. Her own words show that she thought she’d need a man to father the child at least! She didn’t think it was going to be a supernatural conception - hence her asking about a man. She thought the child would need a father. Fathering a child in the natural way takes some time! Like I said, her first thoughts, if she was thinking of having a normal marriage, would have been of Joseph.

As for you ‘knowing’ that Joseph intended a physical union with Mary after marriage - you are the one who is reading your own preconceptions into the Gospel. Where is it written that this is what Joseph intended and that it happened? And beware of the word ‘until’. In the language the Bible was written in it DOESN’T automatically mean that Joseph had relations with her AFTER Christ was born.

Brilliant deduction, hahahhahaha. Two years ago after I married my wife, I certainly was looking forward to consummating our marriage. The perfect will of God is still for the married to be fruitful and multiply but there is an exception where Mary is concerned because The Catholic Church can’t fathom that precious woman having intercourse with her husband. I think that is sick to be honest.
You also warned against the word “until” well in bible language the word “until” does mean AFTER. You catholics just don’t want to acknowledge that truth because in your minds you think it was degrading for Mary and Joseph to engage in intercourse when in fact it is one of God’s most beeautiful gifts.

 

[sosayi1960]

Canon 1061: “A valid marriage between baptised persons is said to be merely ratified, if it is not consummated…”

Also its worth while to point out this was just a natural marriage not a sacramental marriage.

So Catholics are to believe that Mary and Joseph lived together in a natural marriage. They had never made a sacramental marriage. I don’t get it? Sorry

 

[Priest34]

The written Word of God is also a Catholic Tradition. It was the Catholic Church that sifted through all the circulating Gospels and other letters and determined which of those belonged in the Bible. If you accept the Catholic Church’s authority to determine which Gospels and Epistles were Sacred Scripture and which ones were junk, why do you not think the Church knows how to interpret those books?

If you’re truly here to learn, I encourage you to spend some time looking over the links I provided above. I especially recommend listening to “One Church” which can be downloaded FREE from the Bible Christian Society.

Prior to what you refer to as a Catholic Tradition there was what is referred to as the Written Word of God. The Jews loved it and studied it…David said I have hid thy word in my heart…
And I don’t receive or accept the Catholic Church as an authority on spiritual matters. If anything I believe the CC has missed it terribly.

 

[LJN21]

So Catholics are to believe that Mary and Joseph lived together in a natural marriage. They had never made a sacramental marriage. I don’t get it? Sorry

There was no such thing as a sacramental marriage yet.

hum… I’m starting to wonder if Priest43 here is Kujo

 

[LilyM]

Prior to what you refer to as a Catholic Tradition there was what is referred to as the Written Word of God. The Jews loved it and studied it…David said I have hid thy word in my heart…
And I don’t receive or accept the Catholic Church as an authority on spiritual matters. If anything I believe the CC has missed it terribly.

The Jews didn’t have a formal canon for their scriptures in Jesus’ day either - they were still disagreeing about which books were inspired at the council of Jamnia in 70 AD, 35 years AFTER Christ died!!!

 

[Priest34]

Which exact words of the angel is it, then, pray tell us since you’re so much more intelligent than I, that would make it ‘clear’ to Mary that she would conceive immediately??? As opposed to a few months when she was married? The answer is none of 'em.

To be sure the angel says ‘you will conceive a child’. But the angel immediately follows with ‘He will be known as … He will be …’ - did any of THOSE predictions about the child come true immediately? Of course not. So why would Mary think the conception would happen immediately?

**The fact that she responded by saying, “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man”. It is clear to me that Mary for some reason understood that what was being spoken was going to take place prior to her knowing a man. As far as who HE was to be recognized as that doesn’t take a long time. Simeon knew, Philip knew **

 

[LilyM]

**The fact that she responded by saying, “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man”. It is clear to me that Mary for some reason understood that what was being spoken was going to take place prior to her knowing a man. As far as who HE was to be recognized as that doesn’t take a long time. Simeon knew, Philip knew **

Clear to you maybe, but clear to Mary??? Why would this be clear to Mary??? You are reading your own preconceptions into it.

Simeon knew who Jesus was and made predictions, but what he predicted didn’t HAPPEN until Jesus was an adult (maybe at the age of 12, not before then). And Philip knew Jesus as an adult.

We’re talking predictions made by the angel before He was even conceived that didn’t come into fruition until a decade or more later. So why would Mary assume that the one line about her conceiving would happen immediately?