Question About Muslims

[Kadaveri]

Kadaveri:

It isn’t part of our religion to kill anyone who is not a Muslim. In Islam there is no compulsion in religion, as truth is distinct from error (Qur’an 2:256).

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but is there really no compulsion in Islam? ie can anyone change their religion with no fear of being killed? Than that is news to me. Are you sure of it?

Can you give some quaranic references? and also hadis? Mostly quran.

I gave a reference.

 

[famdigy]

This is an interesting response which makes me want to research Shi’a Islam even more. When you say “false Islam,” are you in fact referring to Sunni Islam?

Out of curiosity, I assume you refer to Mohammad (obviously) when you say the prophet was poisoned? Is that in Shi’a tradition? Furthermore, what does Shi’a Islam say about the sahih hadith sources that cite Mohammad claiming almost all his companions (or at the very least his top ones) will enter Paradise? I assume that many of the “false companions” included those who directly knew Mohammad and were well respected, especially among Sunni Muslims.

In this specific instance, I was referring to Sunnism as the false Islam. But generally speaking, any Islamic ideology that parts with the teachings of the Prophet through his family is what we consider false.

The hadith of the Prophet (pbuh&hf) being poisoned by his companions and their daughters is in Shia hadiths, however, there are sunni hadiths that corroborate the story.

You are referring to the Hadith of the 10 companions who were allegedly promised paradise. This hadith according to Shia Islam is a fabrication. The shia have their own collections of Hadiths which are completely separate from the Sunni sahih collection, even the narrators are completely different.

 

[famdigy]

The jizya was a tax non-Muslims paid (especially Jews and Christians) for “protection” - if they converted, it was removed. Of course, any extra tax given upon a people simply for their religious beliefs is a violation of human rights. It is also worth noting that the notable Islamic scholars early on in the faith all identified passages such as S. 9:29 as being warlike in stature and referring to war. It wasn’t until recently that Muslim apologists began to argue that mentions of war and jihad in the Quran were solely metaphorical in nature.

Some choice hadith quotes as well:

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it. [Sahih Muslim, Book 026, Number 5389]
​

you mentioned some choice hadith about how to behave with and treat non-muslims.

Below is the Shia counterpart to the sunni hadiths you mention above.

"Maalik! You must create in your mind kindness, compassion and love for your subjects. Do not behave towards them as if you are a voracious and ravenous beast and as if your success lies in devouring them.

Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you."

Imam Ali, letter 53, to his governor in Egypt Maalik Al-Ashtar, nahjulbalagha.org/LetterDetail.php?Letter=53

“Treat the tax-payers with equity and justice and think over their wishes with patience and kindness because you are the treasurer of the subjects, representative of the people and the officer on behalf of higher authority. Do not force anybody to forsake his requirements and to do without his necessities (so that he may pay the taxes). In collection of taxes and revenues do not sell their winter and summer clothing, their slaves or such of their animals as are of service to them, do not resort to whipping, do not touch their property, be they Muslims or non-Muslims”
Imam Ali, letter 51 to the collectors of taxes and revenues, nahjulbalagha.org/LetterDetail.php?Letter=51

Muslims of All schools agree that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf) said “I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it’s gate, whomever seeks the city should enter it from it’s gate”

Imam Ali taught us that people are two, either your brothers in religion or your equals in humanity and to treat with kindness, compassion and love those under our guardianship

this is very different to the behavior of some of the companions to towards non-muslims. And to justify their actions, they attribute the same behavior to the the prophet, meanwhile his closest and most beloved follower, Imam Ali (as) behaved and taught concepts and values which are completely different from the significant companions.

This is why we believe there are two very different ideologies within Islam, one is very violent and barbaric, the other is sublime and lofty, we believe the Islam of Ali (as) is the true Islam of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf) and anyone else who does not follow the example of Ali has swerved away from the straight path.​

 

[ZAKI]

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but is there really no compulsion in Islam? ie can anyone change their religion with no fear of being killed? Than that is news to me. Are you sure of it?

Can you give some quaranic references? and also hadis? Mostly quran.

sadly that is incorrect-an apostate has a few days (possibly a week) to be convinced by his fellow muslims to turn back to islam or else he will be killed.

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

sadly that is incorrect-an apostate has a few days (possibly a week) to be convinced by his fellow muslims to turn back to islam or else he will be killed.

wasalam

Here is a small quote to show you what I mean.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794).

taken from: islam-qa.com/en/ref/20327

wasalam

 

[planten]

Hello Planten,could you tell me if Maurice Bucaille, the favourite french writer of Muslims ever became a muslim? I believe there is another writer called Karen Armstrong who wrote biography of Mohammed, could you let me know if she too became a muslim? I tried various sources but could not trace. But as they are your favorite writes will appreciate if you would share that.

Thanks for asking. I do not know anything about those two people if they became Muslims. But there is no need to become a Muslim. They liked something, so they liked it and praised it. That is enough, like telling the truth about something.

We are posting here and giving our opinion about some things.Like wise those two also gave their opinion (Vote) for Islam and Quran. We should respect their opinion. There is no need to become a Muslim. I would be most happy if you remained a good christian. Maurice Bucaille and Karen Armstrong may be christians. But they are good christians.

Please see verse 2:62 of Quran which teaches as follows:

Those who are believers (Muslims) and those who are Jews and those who are Christians and every one of other religions (Baha’is, Mormons, JW’s), whoever believed in God and believed in the last day and did befitting deeds, they will (all) have their reward with their Lord. And they will have no fear (of the future) nor will they be sorry (grieved) for anything of the past.

So I believe that we are all together in these matters. Please note that if you will go to ask the meaning of this verse from any Muslim religious leader, he will tell you a different story, not so good.

Any one can remain a Hindu or Budhist or Jew or christian or Muslim, and be good person, there will be no harm to any one and no need to fight or fear.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

In this specific instance, I was referring to Sunnism as the false Islam. But generally speaking, any Islamic ideology that parts with the teachings of the Prophet through his family is what we consider false.

The hadith of the Prophet (pbuh&hf) being poisoned by his companions and their daughters is in Shia hadiths, however, there are sunni hadiths that corroborate the story.

You are referring to the Hadith of the 10 companions who were allegedly promised paradise. This hadith according to Shia Islam is a fabrication. The shia have their own collections of Hadiths which are completely separate from the Sunni sahih collection, even the narrators are completely different.

you mentioned some choice hadith about how to behave with and treat non-muslims.

Below is the Shia counterpart to the sunni hadiths you mention above.

"Maalik! You must create in your mind kindness, compassion and love for your subjects. Do not behave towards them as if you are a voracious and ravenous beast and as if your success lies in devouring them.

Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you."

Imam Ali, letter 53, to his governor in Egypt Maalik Al-Ashtar, nahjulbalagha.org/LetterDetail.php?Letter=53

Out of curiosity, is there a good website with a collection of Shia hadiths and their sayings? I’ve been to the website you linked to and read the sermons/sayings/etc.

 

[jakasaki]

sadly that is incorrect-an apostate has a few days (possibly a week) to be convinced by his fellow muslims to turn back to islam or else he will be killed.

wasalam

Zaki, did you always believed (you statement on top) to be true or are you finding it out now because you are questioning islam and your conversion and you want out?

 

[staffsgt7]

Jihad is an important part of Islam. The word itself comes from the Arabic noun ‘juhd’, which means an ‘effort’, and jihad is the process of making an effort, i.e. a struggle. In Islam jihad means to struggle in the cause of God, and can mean a variety of things, for example the Prophet Muhammad said the greatest form of jihad is speaking the truth in front of a tyrant. Jihad can also mean is often used to refer to a physical/military struggle in the way of God, in which case it’s similar to Catholicisms’ doctrine of ‘just war’.

It is not even close. In Islam a ‘just war’ means that it is ok to wage war against people just because they are not Muslims, don’t believe in Mohammed and Allah. If they don’t want to fight then they are supposed to either convert or accept subjugation.

Jihad as taught in the Koran and hadith is 97% violence against the non-MUslims and only 3% as an inner struggle.

And Muslims can wage Jihad with their ‘sword’ (or violently), with their tonges, or with their wealth. So it is mostly done by people who migrate, who appear peaceful at first, with their tongues while giving their zakat that is directed to such places as Saudi Arabia (example) and they give at least 1/8th to those who fight in the way of Allah, and up to 1/2 of zakat can go to organizations such as the front organizations for the Muslim Brotherhood that is a terror organization too.

People need to not only know the Koran and Hadith, but also their Sharia laws which pretty much spells out the laws that Muslims are to follow. And too many of them strive to replace our laws with them too. Jihad is described in o9 of Reliance of the Traveller. Zakat is described and its destinations are also described in that book.

One major difference in the type of war that is described as a ‘just war’ is that Muslims will take an offensive stand against people because they are not Muslims, and other religions such as Christianity will take a defensive stand against people attacking them for whatever reason, one of those reasons being Muslims attacking them because they are not Muslims.

 

[staffsgt7]

Here is a small quote to show you what I mean.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794).

taken from: islam-qa.com/en/ref/20327

wasalam

And it says that in Sharia laws too. It is permissable, if one gets killed because they left Islam there is no punishment for the killer. It is also permissable to exile the person.

 

[planten]

Here is a small quote to show you what I mean.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794).

taken from: islam-qa.com/en/ref/20327

wasalam

Zaki, I would not believe that Hadith because it goes against the Quran. If I accept that Hadith then I have to forget the Quran. If I keep the Quran then I have to deny that Hadith.

The words of the Hadith are vague. Does it mean that any one who changes his religion, say from christian to Islam, then Muslims are to kill him?? I do not think so.

I believe that any apostate is not to be killed. A Muslim may become a Hindu or christian, he should never be killed. Muslims should never disturb that person.

Killing is a capital punishment and it can only be awarded by some definite command of the Quran, not by any words of a doubtful hadith which goes against the Quran. There is no command in the Quran to kill any apostate. If all apostates are to be killed then what is the use of evangelising, peaceful preaching??

 

[wwolverine]

Zaki, I would not believe that Hadith because it goes against the Quran. If I accept that Hadith then I have to forget the Quran. If I keep the Quran then I have to deny that Hadith.

The words of the Hadith are vague. Does it mean that any one who changes his religion, say from christian to Islam, then Muslims are to kill him?? I do not think so.

I believe that any apostate is not to be killed. A Muslim may become a Hindu or christian, he should never be killed. Muslims should never disturb that person.

Killing is a capital punishment and it can only be awarded by some definite command of the Quran, not by any words of a doubtful hadith which goes against the Quran. There is no command in the Quran to kill any apostate. If all apostates are to be killed then what is the use of evangelising, peaceful preaching??

Planten, I do know that there are many books on hadiths in Islam, one of them is Sahih Al Bukari, and almost all muslims vouch for this writer. Now you say some of his hadiths are not authentic or cannot be accepted?

So what is 100 percent authentic in islam? If you say quran,than many writers on this forum have shown it has too many errors, and so that means even Quran is not authentic, so what is?

 

[kimmielittle]

One major difference in the type of war that is described as a ‘just war’ is that Muslims will take an offensive stand against people because they are not Muslims, and other religions such as Christianity will take a defensive stand against people attacking them for whatever reason, one of those reasons being Muslims attacking them because they are not Muslims.

 

[staffsgt7]

Zaki, I would not believe that Hadith because it goes against the Quran. If I accept that Hadith then I have to forget the Quran. If I keep the Quran then I have to deny that Hadith.

The words of the Hadith are vague. Does it mean that any one who changes his religion, say from christian to Islam, then Muslims are to kill him?? I do not think so.

I believe that any apostate is not to be killed. A Muslim may become a Hindu or christian, he should never be killed. Muslims should never disturb that person.

Killing is a capital punishment and it can only be awarded by some definite command of the Quran, not by any words of a doubtful hadith which goes against the Quran. There is no command in the Quran to kill any apostate. If all apostates are to be killed then what is the use of evangelising, peaceful preaching??

You guys need the hadith in order to understand the Koran. And your Sharia laws use them (the Koran and Sunnah).

If killing apostates was against Islam then we wouldn’t be hearing about it so often. Sharia laws do indeed say it is ok to kill apostates.

It is permissable, if one gets killed because they left Islam there is no punishment for the killer. It is also permissable to exile the person.

planten is trying to muddy the waters of what people do in Islam. We also have an increase of ‘honor killings’ when people are leaving Islam. Many times, if they are women, they get shipped back to their home countries to get married to someone in an arranged marriage. Then their husbands can take care of them when they are in a Muslim country if they persist in their abrogation.

It is all very sick.

 

[staffsgt7]

Planten, I do know that there are many books on hadiths in Islam, one of them is Sahih Al Bukari, and almost all muslims vouch for this writer. Now you say some of his hadiths are not authentic or cannot be accepted?

So what is 100 percent authentic in islam? If you say quran,than many writers on this forum have shown it has too many errors, and so that means even Quran is not authentic, so what is?

This is one of their ‘moldy Muslim excuses’.

 

[imkingdad]

It’s human nature to obstinately resist arguments waged against ourselves even if they are true. Muslims have to face the truth of what’s in their books. As much as the mainstream Muslims hate to admit it, yes there is violence, terrorism, torture, barbarianism and forceful compulsion in an ideological violent false version of Islam followed by the majority of Muslims today. But if we turn to true Islam we will not find any encouragement of violence or terrorism. To the contrary, true Islam absolutely forbids violence even against animals and plants.

Who then created this false version? Those who turned against the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) after his death are the ones who created this false version which justifies acts of violence and terrorism.

our prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and his family are victims of the mutiny of the “companions”, the Caliphs, and scholars and hadith forgers on the Caliph’s payroll.

This violent false version Islam started when the companions poisoned and killed our prophet, killed his daughter, poisoned his first grandson, and behaded his second grandson. They ordered all scrolls and books be gathered and burned so there is no record of the Prophet’s legacy. They oppressed everybody, Muslim and Non-Muslim alike, and to justify their behavior they bankrolled Scholars and hadith forgers to attribute similar behavior to the the prophet. This version if Islam was forced down the people’s throats. At the same time, the true followers of Muhammad and his Family (pbuh&hf) were savagely hunted down, butchered, tortured, and murdered. Given the circumstances Taqiyya was necessary to protect our faith, families, lives, and property from the savage onslaught of these hobos.

So yes there is violence, but in a false Islam. True Islam lives on it’s pure and original form as taught by the Prophet and his Family (pbuh&hf) in what is known today as Shi’i Islam.

---

so what you are saying is that the Present Form of Islam as practiced throughout the whole world, except for your sect, is False. The scriptures (Quran Hadith etc) are also corrupted & false. The Imams, Ayatollahs etc that teach from these texts teach a False Islam and lead all of their followers away from Allah & into the bowels of Hell? It his correct. Your Sect Shi’i is the True Islam & the other 73 sects are False & due to incur Allah’s utter condemnation…

I appreciate you Faith & Peaceful stance in an otherwise difficult & corrupt world.
Looking forward to your reply.

 

[ZAKI]

Zaki, I would not believe that Hadith because it goes against the Quran. If I accept that Hadith then I have to forget the Quran. If I keep the Quran then I have to deny that Hadith.

The words of the Hadith are vague. Does it mean that any one who changes his religion, say from christian to Islam, then Muslims are to kill him?? I do not think so.

I believe that any apostate is not to be killed. A Muslim may become a Hindu or christian, he should never be killed. Muslims should never disturb that person.

Killing is a capital punishment and it can only be awarded by some definite command of the Quran, not by any words of a doubtful hadith which goes against the Quran. There is no command in the Quran to kill any apostate. If all apostates are to be killed then what is the use of evangelising, peaceful preaching??

where does the Quran talk about the treatment of APOSTATES which rejects this SAHIH hadith i have given?
and btw, that is just one simple one said by the prophet himself-there are many more hadiths that I can give if you want?

 

[staffsgt7]

This poor soul was able to escape being killed under Sharia laws when he left Islam.

Even in the West we see Muslims behaving very badly in their treatment of him. He was able to seek assylum in the UK and Muslims in the UK are:

His conversion had already led to hostility from other Afghans and Muslims in London who spat at him in the street, the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Tribunal was told.

The best book I bought has been the book about Sharia laws. When Muslims tell me it is a tribal thing, or not an Islamic thing, I go to their Sharia laws and find that IT IS IN their set of laws based on the Koran and Sunnah. So, just more taqiyya or kithman.