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Wilshire
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Can we, as a human person, have a human nature and a divine nature the same way as Jesus, as a divine person, has a human nature and a divine nature?
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meltzerboy2
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I would say, according to Christian belief, no, not exactly in the same way, because we are not G-d, unless you are giving another meaning to “divine” and to “the same way.”
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Wesrock
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No. We can’t. The one, Triune God intentionally assumed a human nature in Jesus Christ. There is only one Divine Nature, one Divinity.
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Dovekin
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This is a quite complicated question. When we were baptized, each of us received the Holy Spirit. The Divine nature therefor is part of us (unless we understand in an exclusively physicalist way).
This is like the way God “intentionally assumed a human nature” and very unlike it. We are in Christ, so it is not just like it, it is the unity of the divine and human in Christ! Yet it does not override our humanity, which is limited and mortal and weak, so it is not entirely like the unity in Christ.
The Church is the Body of Christ, a human body that is united with the Divine Spirit. We are completely human and yet this Spirit lives within us. That Holy Spirit ”uses” our humanity to continue the presence of Christ in the world.
IOW I do not know how to answer your question.
This is like the way God “intentionally assumed a human nature” and very unlike it. We are in Christ, so it is not just like it, it is the unity of the divine and human in Christ! Yet it does not override our humanity, which is limited and mortal and weak, so it is not entirely like the unity in Christ.
The Church is the Body of Christ, a human body that is united with the Divine Spirit. We are completely human and yet this Spirit lives within us. That Holy Spirit ”uses” our humanity to continue the presence of Christ in the world.
IOW I do not know how to answer your question.
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Wilshire
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This is the most reasonable answer so far.
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Wesrock
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Theosis or divinization does not change the nature of man: it perfects it. While the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a miraculous and intimate thing, it does not make one God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are, and it is not the hypostatic union.
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Dovekin
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I can say “I do not know” to almost any question you ask!
Nor does theosis change the nature of God.
How come the shift to past tense? I would have said “it perfects it.” What do you mean by these statements?
Why do you say it is not the hypostatic union? St Paul says “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God.”
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Wesrock
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That’s a case of my phone correcting perfectly valid words and me not catching it. It should read “perfects.”Wesrock:
Nor does theosis change the nature of God.
How come the shift to past tense? I would have said “it perfects it.” What do you mean by these statements?
We participate in Christ, but we are not persons of the Godhead. The terms hypostatic union refers to God becoming Incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ by a unique union of his Divine Nature with a human nature. Our participation in and communion with Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not the same. It is he who is a Divine Person, not us. To say that we all have that hypostatic union with a person of the Trinity would be blasphemy (though I assume unintentional here). God the Most High walked among his people as Jesus Christ. Jesus did not just have a “direct line to God.” He is God. He is Yahweh (I generally refrain from using the Divine Name, but I wanted to emphasize a point here). God wasn’t just in him. Jesus is him. He had the Divine Intellect and the Divine Will in addition to his human one as one person. We are not that, nor will be.
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rom
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The short answer is NO. A divine nature can only subsist in a divine person. Therefore, a human person cannot be the terminus of both a human and a divine nature.
In Christ it is different. He is a Divine Person. Therefore, He can have both a human and a divine nature.
Note that a person terminates a nature in that it becomes the subject of existence and operations. A person is that which acts. The nature is not that which acts, but is that by which a substance (or person, if it is an intellectual substance) acts. Thus, when a man sings, it is not his human nature that sings, but his person that sings.
Now, a Divine Person can be the terminus of both a human and divine nature. He can be the subject of both Divine and human operations. A human person, however, can only be the terminus of a human nature and cannot be the subject of divine operations.
In Christ there is no human person. There are NOT two persons in Christ, or two subjects of operations, but only two natures subsisting in his one Divine Person. His Divine Person, is the subject of actions and operations performed both by his human and by his Divine Nature. Therefore, it is He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, who, by his Divine Nature, changed the water into wine at Cana. And it is He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, who by his human nature, suffered and died on the cross and redeemed us from our sins. His natures are that by which He acts divinely or humanly, but it is just His single Person that acts in either case.
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Dovekin
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I do not disagree with what you have said, but there is something more going on. “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me” means something. And if it is Christ who lives, it is the hypostatic union. Not that I take part in that union, as I no longer live, but that Christ does.
Think of the Eucharist. The hypostatic union is in effect there sacramentally, which is real. And if it can be seen there, it can be seen in us as well. There is a reality to God that does not change because it joins with our humanity.
When one is baptized, it is Christ who baptizes, not the minister. Yes, of course it is the minister who pours the water and says the prayer. But it is Christ who acts. There is something more going on than just I baptized you.
It would be nice if @Wilshire would say more about what his question is seeking. Though he may not be as comfortable babbling about these things as I apparently am. There is something more…
Think of the Eucharist. The hypostatic union is in effect there sacramentally, which is real. And if it can be seen there, it can be seen in us as well. There is a reality to God that does not change because it joins with our humanity.
When one is baptized, it is Christ who baptizes, not the minister. Yes, of course it is the minister who pours the water and says the prayer. But it is Christ who acts. There is something more going on than just I baptized you.
It would be nice if @Wilshire would say more about what his question is seeking. Though he may not be as comfortable babbling about these things as I apparently am. There is something more…
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Wesrock
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This is theological and even a bit poetic language. St. Paul certainly did not think his body or soul was no longer living and that he was just a puppet for Christ. He died to sin and was regenerated in Christ, but he was not himself as a person God. I would refrain from continuing to use the word Hypostatic Union for this relationship. It is very specific and your usage of it for us amounts to heresy.
The Eucharist is Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity made present to us under the appearance of bread and wine. Jesus as a person is physically present in the Eucharist as his body and blood are made present. That again is not us
We are not divine persons with a divine nature and a human nature. We are human persons each with a human nature and, as Christians, we become temples for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Christ’s action in us and us in him. This union is not the Hypostatic Union. Being a Divine Person with a divine nature and a human nature would be. If we were Divine Persons we would not need Christ and we would be incapable of sin.
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rom
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When St. Paul says “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me,” then it should be understood, not as a physical union, but as a union in grace. By grace I live in Christ and Christ lives in me.
However, when we receive Holy Communion there is a brief period of time, just a few minutes, when Christ is really present in us, not just by grace, but sacramentally, until the accidents of the host or wine cease to exist in our bodies. But even in this brief moment the physical union of the Body of Christ with our bodies is only an accidental union. It is not even a substantial union, much less a hypostatic union.
Hypostatic Union is the union of two natures in one person, as Wesrock explained. In the case of Christ the human nature and divine nature are so united in His Person that He can, by his Divine Nature, perform a miracle, but by His human nature, He can perform human acts, suffer and die. When we receive Holy Communion, Christ’s human and Divine nature exist in us but remain distinct from our own nature and are not united hypostatically in our own person. If they were, then we would, by the Divine Nature in us, also be able to perform a miracle. But obviously that is not the case.
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Vico
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No, because the person of the Son of God with divine nature assumed a human nature at the creation of the human body and soul of Jesus, therefore maintaining two natures. Others persons are created with only one nature, human. A human may become an adopted son of God – a partaker of the divine nature (supernatural grace) – without being created with a divine nature.
Catechism
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Dovekin
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What we pray, in the Eucharistic prayers, is:
The “accidental union” is marginal alongside being filled with the Holy Spirit and becoming “one body, one spirit in Christ.” What I have been talking about is being filled with the Holy Spirit, being in Christ.
You are not alone in making this mistake. Many seem to think it is our human bodies that are filled with the Spirit. It is our human person that receives the Holy Spirit.
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rom
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I was trying to explain to you that when we receive Holy Communion the Divine Nature of Christ does not become hypostatically united to our human nature even during that few minutes when He is sacramentally present in us. Having said that, I will not argue against your insight that when we receive Holy Communion, we are also filled with grace and the Spirit of Christ, and we become mystically “one body, one spirit in Christ.” This mystical union (not hypostatic union) can last much longer than just a few minutes. Mystical union lasts as long as we remain in the state of grace.
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rom
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Yes, Christ has a human nature and a Divine nature hypostatically united in His Person, but not in your person.
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Vico
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With indwelling there is the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person who is in the state of grace. Indwelling of God in a man is different than one substance (hypostasis). It is necessary to understand the difference to avoid the error or Arianism.Wilshire:
I can say “I do not know” to almost any question you ask!
Nor does theosis change the nature of God.
How come the shift to past tense? I would have said “it perfects it.” What do you mean by these statements?
Why do you say it is not the hypostatic union? St Paul says “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God.”
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Dovekin
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The Holy Spirit was introduced by @Wesrock to avoid the phraseology of St Paul of “Christ lives in me.” It is not wrong, but it just avoids the issue. I would have to develop a theology of the Spirit in order to continue on that line, instead of using the current terminology.
We are united with Christ, in whom the human and divine are united. In that respect, our personal humanity is united with the divine nature by way of the hypostatic union. There is a sense in which the divine has assumed our humanity, although there is still a distance. Adopted child, not begotten by God, or other distancing language is used, but the underlying united with God still applies.
I think @Wilshire asked an interesting question. The negative responses are disheartening, because they miss a reality that prompted the question. I am not claiming to have a coherent answer, but I hope something I have said helps someone understand that in Christ, God is our Father.
We are united with Christ, in whom the human and divine are united. In that respect, our personal humanity is united with the divine nature by way of the hypostatic union. There is a sense in which the divine has assumed our humanity, although there is still a distance. Adopted child, not begotten by God, or other distancing language is used, but the underlying united with God still applies.
I think @Wilshire asked an interesting question. The negative responses are disheartening, because they miss a reality that prompted the question. I am not claiming to have a coherent answer, but I hope something I have said helps someone understand that in Christ, God is our Father.
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Wesrock
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By way of Christ, who has a hypostatic union of a divine nature and a human nature under his personhood. We don’t ourselves subsist as divine persons with two natures as the makeup of our personhood.
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