Question about Purgatory

[joe370]

Catholics, Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God that forgives the sins of those who ask in or outside of the Mystery of Confession. (Catholics believe venial sin can be forgiven outside Confession & mortal can be too under a certain circumstance, otherwise, mortal must be confessed during Confession.)

Catholic theologian Scott Hahn explains purgatory is necessary through a story of a little boy who breaks his neighbor’s window. The boy can go to the neighbor, apologize and be forgiven, but the neighbor will still demand the boy pay to replace the window.

Orthodox & Protestants agree that God is a God who forgives everything. Jesus paid all of our debts.

Why do Catholics teach that after they have been forgiven by God something additional remains to be paid for or needs to be purged in purgatory? Why don’t Catholics believe that Jesus paid for those debts, too?

Once you walk out of the confessional your baptismal condition is completely restored thanks to the fact that Jesus paid all of our debts. If someone died at that exact moment the only eternal place awaiting that person would be heaven; no chance of hell!

The only question each of us must ask is: are there consequences for our actions (upon our demise) even when our sin slate is wiped clean? What do you think?

Moreover, if people go directly to heaven or hell upon their demise, then why the need to pray for those who have died?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

For the first 900 years or so of the Churches existence there was only "One set of Faith beliefs; One Church and One head of the Church; Peter and his successors…

I’ve read the Church Fathers both those translated / quoted by Catholic & Orthodox sources and I completely disagree your conclusion.

PJM:

Each damages others besides the sinner and thus requires a “pay-back”. Even though the sin irself has been forgiven and forgotten this Temporal Debt remains and must be payd for.

No room for the Mercy of Jesus? Even after He Forgives us completely & doesn’t remember our sin, He still remember that He needs to be sure to get His “pay-back”? To get even with us? - Disagree whole-heartedly with you on this.

PJM:

The Church provides these means and Indulgences to reply the “banker / Christ Alone”. That’s the unkonwn factor. HOW much dept do we Owe? And How MUCH creidt God issues towards these debts based on the above.

That all sounds legalistic rather than a God abundant in love and mercy.

PJM:

Indulgences and the Last Rites; AFTER having received the Sacrament of Baptism which erases both all sins and their Temporal Punishment, until one sins again; are the manner Mother Church and God give us to perfect our Souls and thus be enabled to access heaven; assuming of course there are no unconfessed mortal sins to be Sacramentally Forgiven

You really believe that God is capable of forgiving what you call “temporal punishment” through Baptism, but not capable of forgiving what you call “temporal punishment” through repentance & Confession? Then we’re right back to the main question of this thread. Why do Catholic believe God isn’t capable and does not forgive every aspect of our sins and but believe that there is something left over which needs to be “purged” after death.

Orthodox believe God is capable and does forgive all aspects of sin, leaving nothing left to “purge”. Orthodox stick to Tradition and pray for our dead knowing that their sins can be forgiven in this age or the age to come with one exception: “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come.” For those who die in the faith, but have not yet repented every sin, these prayers can be beneficial.

 

[Cavaradossi]

First, if we are not punished in a cleansing way by God, we are not truly His sons (see Heb. 12:5-11). The Gospel also commands that not only do we repent, but we must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (see for example, Matt. 3:8, Luke 3:8, Acts 26:20). This is what the Catholic Church calls “satisfaction” and what is satisfied in Purgatory if not done in this life.

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

As an aside, the Orthodox Churches teach this too–or at least used to:

crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html

“Used to teach” would be a rather misleading way of putting it. The experiences of those who have departed, as Mark of Ephesus taught, whether bliss or torment, are merely foretastes, with the departed receiving a foretaste of hell if they departed in wickedness, and of heaven if they departed in righteousness. The torment then, experienced by those faithful who departed in a state of unrighteousness is not for the purpose of expiation, nor is it the punishing power of God, but stems from the darkness of being deprived of the divine light while awaiting the resurrection. It is believed that through the prayers of the Church, and most especially the commemoration of the dead during the bloodless sacrifice that they may eventually be released from torment and come to a restful state while awaiting the resurrection and final judgment. There simply is no tradition in the East of receiving the exact temporal punishment due for one’s sins, as sins forgiven by God do not necessitate punishment, and sins which are retained are punished not temporally but eternally.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Once you walk out of the confessional your baptismal condition is completely restored thanks to the fact that Jesus paid all of our debts. If someone died at that exact moment the only eternal place awaiting that person would be heaven; no chance of hell!

The only question each of us must ask is: are there consequences for our actions (upon our demise) even when our sin slate is wiped clean? What do you think?

Moreover, if people go directly to heaven or hell upon their demise, then why the need to pray for those who have died?

Who said people go directly to heaven or hell? The Orthodox teaching has always been that all will await the resurrection to be judged.

 

[joe370]

Thank you for the response. I believe you’re right this passage may be a reason Catholics teach purgatory.

Reading those verses in context with the passage, Jesus is speaking about during this life, not the next life: Matthew 5:23 “Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar…” In the next life, we won’t be bringing gifts to the altar as Jesus was the gift that ended all animal sacrifices. He is the Lamb of God.

Even if the Catholic interpretation of this verse is true, then we have another problem within the passage as it indicates that the person his/herself can themselves “pay every last penny”, but Catholic teaching is that a person in purgatory is unable to do anything for themselves, not even to pray for themselves.

Remember that this was the practice of the Jews to bring the gift of an animal to be slaughtered on the altar - the Eucharist celebration hadn’t yet been initiated when Jesus had spoken these words.

Perhaps the debt (last penny - metaphorical language) is the consequence of one’s actions. So, you believe the following passage, quoted by Jesus, is referring to some sort of earthly, gentile prison? Jesus would care more about eternal prison more so than earthly prison? Admittedly the following passages are rather ambiguous in terms of purgatory.

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister**[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.**

 

[joe370]

Tollhouses is a very different concept that Purgatory…

A quick snap shot: After death, the soul ascends with their Guardian Angel and come to one Tollhouse after another. Each Tollhouses has a different demon (of lust, of gluttony, etc) and that demon test & accuse the soul after death of each time in thought, word or deed the soul committed that particular sin and the Guardian Angel is there to combat the accusations by recalling all the times of repentance the soul had made for those sins & “pays”, if the soul is found to have unrepented sin then the demon takes the soul to hell a place where the soul awaits in fear the resurrection, not purgatory or heaven and if the soul is found to have repented of all sin, then he/she proceeds toward God where he/she joyfully awaits the resurrection.

Unrepentant for sins forgiven? The idea is pretty much the same. Consequences…

 

[joe370]

Who said people go directly to heaven or hell? The Orthodox teaching has always been that all will await the resurrection to be judged.

The EOC teaches that some go directly to heaven; some go directly to hell; some go to hell temporarily, as per ComeHome2Rome. Is this correct?

Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome View Post
Tollhouses is a very different concept that Purgatory…

A quick snap shot: After death, the soul ascends with their Guardian Angel and come to one Tollhouse after another. Each Tollhouses has a different demon (of lust, of gluttony, etc) and that demon test & accuse the soul after death of each time in thought, word or deed the soul committed that particular sin and the Guardian Angel is there to combat the accusations by recalling all the times of repentance the soul had made for those sins & “pays”, if the soul is found to have unrepented sin then the demon takes the soul to hell a place where the soul awaits in fear the resurrection, not purgatory or heaven and if the soul is found to have repented of all sin, then he/she proceeds toward God where he/she joyfully awaits the resurrection.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Moreover, if people go directly to heaven or hell upon their demise, then why the need to pray for those who have died?

Orthodox Christians don’t believe people go directly yo heaven or hell, but believe what Jesus taught about the pre-resurrection afterlife. Re-read Luke 16:19-31.

We pray for them because those prayers are beneficial for those who die in the faith but with unrepented sin at the time of their death. Jesus speaks of the truth that sin can be forgiven after death with one exception in Matt. 12:32. In one of the Macc., those soldiers who were slain and then found to have been idolaters were prayed for- for the forgiveness of their (unrepented) sins, not for sins already forgiven before death that still had outstanding temporal punishment.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

The EOC teaches that some go directly to heaven; some go directly to hell; some go to hell temporarily, as per ComeHome2Rome. Is this correct?

The Orthodox Church does not teach (& re-read what you quoted me saying) that some go directly to heaven & others directly to hell. Read what Jesus taught, it’s the same as what Orthodox teach about the pre-resurrection. I listed the reference in my last post.

 

[joe370]

That passage refers not to purgatory, but to everlasting punishment after the final judgment. As St. Cyril of Alexandria interprets it, this passage refers to the burden placed upon teachers (i.e., the clergy). Those who are in a position to teach, if they neglect Christ’s flock, are liable to lead people into perdition, and this is why such unfaithful servants are severed and given the same lot as the unbelievers, as verse 46 says. The lesser and greater stripes according to St. Cyril is not related to any sort of temporal punishment remitted in purgatory, but is meant to show that if even those who knew not the master’s will are accounted to be guilty of transgressing against it (for it was in their power to learn of the master’s will), then those who knew the master’s will (teachers) and disobeyed have no hope of escaping the punishment referred to in the previous verse (to receive the lot of the unbelievers).

Just curious: As a former protestant I was surprised to have retrieved so many quotes from the early church talking about the possibility of some sort of purgative or cleansing process after this life. I have one discussing aerial toll houses. Could you share some more?
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[joe370]

The Orthodox Church does not teach (& re-read what you quoted me saying) that some go directly to heaven & others directly to hell. Read what Jesus taught, it’s the same as what Orthodox teach about the pre-resurrection. I listed the reference in my last post.

So no human spirit is in heaven or hell right now: just God and the angels? Forgive me if I misunderstood.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Unrepentant for sins forgiven? The idea is pretty much the same. Consequences…

Don’t think so, the Catholic Church teaches it is only repented sins that someone ends up in Purgatory to be “purged” not forgiven while the Orthodox Church teaches it is unrepented sins that someone can be forgiven in the next age.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Just curious: As a former protestant I was surprised to have retrieved so many quotes from the early church talking about the possibility of some sort of purgative or cleansing process after this life. I have one discussing aerial toll houses. Could you share some more?
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On toll houses? Nope. I know that there are patristic texts on the toll houses, but they’re usually allegorical in nature, not intended to teach of literal toll houses. Frankly, I’ve only met one person who believes in literal toll houses in real life, and he’s not Orthodox but rather he’s Eastern Catholic.

 

[Cavaradossi]

So no human spirit is in heaven or hell right now: just God and the angels? Forgive me if I misunderstood.

Except for the virgin who was taken up body and soul. The Orthodox affirm the necessity for humans to have a body (i.e., to be complete as we were intended to be) in order to experience heaven or hell proper, against Platonizing influences which would undermine the necessity of having a body.

 

[joe370]

Orthodox Christians don’t believe people go directly yo heaven or hell, but believe what Jesus taught about the pre-resurrection afterlife. Re-read Luke 16:19-31.

We pray for them because those prayers are beneficial for those who die in the faith but with unrepented sin at the time of their death. Jesus speaks of the truth that sin can be forgiven after death with one exception in Matt. 12:32. In one of the Macc., those soldiers who were slain and then found to have been idolaters were prayed for- for the forgiveness of their (unrepented) sins, not for sins already forgiven before death that still had outstanding temporal punishment.

Of course Lazarus was not in heaven; the gates of heaven had yet to be open…The gates of heaven did in fact open, thanks to Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross. I have an EO friend you believes this; is he wrong to believe that this is an EO belief?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

On toll houses? Nope. I know that there are patristic texts on the toll houses, but they’re usually allegorical in nature, not intended to teach of literal toll houses. Frankly, I’ve only met one person who believes in literal toll houses in real life, and he’s not Orthodox but rather he’s Eastern Catholic.

Right. It’s a way of explaining a spiritual reality- not that the Guardian Angel actually “pays” the demons who want eternal hell for each person.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Of course Lazarus was not in heaven; the gates of heaven had yet to be open…The gates of heaven did in fact open, thanks to Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross. I have an EO friend you believes this; is he wrong to believe that this is an EO belief?

The gates of heaven are open to those who have been resurrected body & soul - at this time, only Mary (& Jesus) has her resurrected body - they are in Heaven preparing a “place” for us. God-willing, we will join them after the resurrection.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

The EOC teaches that some go directly to heaven; some go directly to hell; some go to hell temporarily, as per ComeHome2Rome. Is this correct?

The Orthodox Church does not teach (& re-read what you quoted me saying) that some go directly to heaven & others directly to hell. Read what Jesus taught, it’s the same as what Orthodox teach about the pre-resurrection. I listed the reference in my last post.

 

[joe370]

Except for the virgin who was taken up body and soul. The Orthodox affirm the necessity for humans to have a body (i.e., to be complete as we were intended to be) in order to experience heaven or hell proper, against Platonizing influences which would undermine the necessity of having a body.

Wow. This EO teaching/belief is completely new to me, and I have discussed this with other EO Christians right here at CAF. As a former protestant I had considered Eastern Orthodoxy, but the idea that only our mother Mary is in heaven. Too much…

 

[Cavaradossi]

Of course Lazarus was not in heaven; the gates of heaven had yet to be open…The gates of heaven did in fact open, thanks to Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross. I have an EO friend you believes this; is he wrong to believe that this is an EO belief?

That depends entirely on what the gates of heaven being opened means. If it means that Christ destroyed death and will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, no, there is nothing wong with that belief. If it means that disembodied souls get to experience paradise or eternal punishment in full, then there is a problem with that belief.