Question about Purgatory

[joe370]

The gates of heaven are open to those who have been resurrected body & soul - at this time, only Mary (& Jesus) has her resurrected body - they are in Heaven preparing a “place” for us. God-willing, we will join them after the resurrection.

“If the soul is found to have repented of all sin, then he/she proceeds toward God where he/she joyfully awaits the resurrection.” Where does this human spirit reside until the time he/she can enter the pearly gates, as per the Eastern Orthodox teaching?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Wow. This EO teaching/belief is completely new to me, and I have discussed this with other EO Christians right here at CAF. As a former protestant I had considered Eastern Orthodoxy, but the idea that only our mother Mary is in heaven. Too much…

What need is there for the resurrection of the dead or for the Lord to come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, if disembodied souls are sent straight to heaven or hell? Humans are not souls trapped in bodies, as the Platonists taught, but we are both body and soul, and we are thus incapable of fully experiencing either eternal bliss or eternal punishment without a body.

 

[joe370]

That depends entirely on what the gates of heaven being opened means. If it means that Christ destroyed death and will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, no, there is nothing wong with that belief. If it means that disembodied souls get to experience paradise or eternal punishment in full, then there is a problem with that belief.

So the thief on the cross is not with Jesus right now in Paradise?

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

[joe370]

What need is there for the resurrection of the dead or for the Lord to come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, if disembodied souls are sent straight to heaven or hell? Humans are not souls trapped in bodies, as the Platonists taught, but we are both body and soul, and we are thus incapable of fully experiencing either eternal bliss or eternal punishment without a body.

When this occurs we (those on earth and souls in heaven) will all receive our glorified bodies. I always thought the EOC and the CC were on the same page. Well, I learned something valuable tonight.

The reason Mary has her glorified body is obvious…

 

[joe370]

What need is there for the resurrection of the dead or for the Lord to come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, if disembodied souls are sent straight to heaven or hell? Humans are not souls trapped in bodies, as the Platonists taught, but we are both body and soul, and we are thus incapable of fully experiencing either eternal bliss or eternal punishment without a body.

No the souls are not trapped in bodies. Of course not. The soul can live without a body. You have admitted this already e.g. Lazarus…You seem to be suggesting that the soul cannot live in heaven withut the glorified body, I think?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

So the thief on the cross is not with Jesus right now in Paradise?

And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

If “paradise” means heaven to you, don’t you remember that according to the New Testament & the Apostles Creed (used by Catholics) Jesus didn’t go to Heaven on the day of His Death? He went down into Hades to preach to the souls there.

There is no reason to assume that “paradise” means heaven. Re-read the beginning of Genesis.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

“If the soul is found to have repented of all sin, then he/she proceeds toward God where he/she joyfully awaits the resurrection.” Where does this human spirit reside until the time he/she can enter the pearly gates, as per the Eastern Orthodox teaching?

Luke 16:19-31

 

[joe370]

Luke 16:19-31

So every single human soul right now (you and me too if we die before Jesus returns) is in fire…a place of torment, as per the EO understanding?

Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham seems to be fine.

 

[Cavaradossi]

So every single human soul right now (you and me too if we die before Jesus returns) is in fire…a place of torment, as per the EO understanding?

Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham seems to be fine.

No, the departed experience a foretaste either of heaven or hell.

 

[joe370]

No, the departed experience a foretaste either of heaven or hell.

So, the thief is not fully in paradise with Jesus…partial paradise for the thief…OK…Have a good night brother…

 

[Cavaradossi]

So, the thief is not fully in paradise with Jesus…partial paradise for the thief…OK…Have a good night brother…

No, you simply insist on paradise only having one meaning, when it could mean multiple things. When Paul speaks of being taken up into paradise in 2 Corinthians, for example, he does not mean that he was taken to the eschatological state of heaven which will exist after the resurrection of the dead, but only that he was shown an unspeakable revelation in the presence of God.

 

[joe370]

No, the departed experience a foretaste either of heaven or hell.

By the way, I thought Jesus brought with him the captives?

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
** and gave gifts to his people.”

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)**

 

[joe370]

No, you simply insist on paradise only having one meaning, when it in fact has multiple meanings. When Paul speaks of being taken up into paradise in 2 Corinthians, for example, he clearly does not mean that he was taken to the eschatological state of heaven.

Agreed. Paul’s was merely a vision…

 

[joe370]

No, you simply insist on paradise only having one meaning, when it could mean multiple things. When Paul speaks of being taken up into paradise in 2 Corinthians, for example, he does not mean that he was taken to the eschatological state of heaven which will exist after the resurrection of the dead, but only that he was shown an unspeakable revelation in the presence of God.

Just occurred to me: how do you know it does not mean that he was taken to the eschatological state of heaven, in his vision?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Just occurred to me: how do you know it does not mean that he was taken to the eschatological state of heaven, in his vision?

Well if it’s going to be that way, how do you know that the paradise the thief on the cross received that day is the new creation at the end of time? Some fathers, like St. Cyril interpret that passage only mentioning that the thief had his name written in the book of life (referencing the final judgment), but stay curiously silent as to what his state was after death. There simply are many different ways to understand being in paradise.

Anyway, this avenue of discussion had proved to be rather fruitless. Perhaps returning to the original topic is called for.

 

[joe370]

Well if you’re going to be that way, how do you know that the paradise the thief on the cross received that day is the new creation at the end of time? This discussion has become fruitless.

OK…

 

[ajecphotos]

I believe that purgatory is on earth. You can’t reach heaven without being pure of heart and soul while on earth. One has to grow in love of our Lord and to have pure faith in God and to show that while we are living on this earth. Purgatory to me is when one is not ready or not yet true to his faith or to God.

 

[Porknpie]

I believe that purgatory is on earth. You can’t reach heaven without being pure of heart and soul while on earth. One has to grow in love of our Lord and to have pure faith in God and to show that while we are living on this earth. Purgatory to me is when one is not ready or not yet true to his faith or to God.

Ajec-

Here’s what the Catechism says. Where are you getting your theology and knowledge from?

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[ajecphotos]

Ajec-

Here’s what the Catechism says. Where are you getting your theology and knowledge from?

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

It’s my personal belief.

I think we are given more than one chance to prove our faith. To lead a good life in the love of God. Maybe our souls are recycled in a way that we have to try again! Given another chance! God wants us to succeed and throws many trials at us. I can’t see god abandoning us if we fall at the first hurdle. He wants us to be pure of heart and soul before we can reach ‘heaven’. We pray for those that have died in sin asking for their souls to be cleansed etc. this is where I think god gives them another chance, to try again. To get it right this time.

 

[ajecphotos]

Just read this and this makes sense to me now:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0041.html

I have been a catholic for 48 years and I am learning all the time! My faith has gotten stronger lately and if I seem to write things that don’t correspond to our faith this is where I am seeking guidance. I pray that I will be able to understand the word of god more day by day.