Question about Purgatory

[Porknpie]

It’s my personal belief.

I think we are given more than one chance to prove our faith. To lead a good life in the love of God. Maybe our souls are recycled in a way that we have to try again! Given another chance! God wants us to succeed and throws many trials at us. I can’t see god abandoning us if we fall at the first hurdle. He wants us to be pure of heart and soul before we can reach ‘heaven’. We pray for those that have died in sin asking for their souls to be cleansed etc. this is where I think god gives them another chance, to try again. To get it right this time.

Ajec-

You didn’t answer my question: “where are you getting your knowledge and theology from?” Your beliefs and thoughts have to come from a source.

Let’s try it this way…

"I get my personal belief from ____________ " ?

this is where I think god gives them another chance, to try again

Ajec- Purgatory is not about having another chance. Those in purgatory will be in heaven but are undergoing purification…removing all desire to sin…

 

[Genesis315]

“Used to teach” would be a rather misleading way of putting it. The experiences of those who have departed, as Mark of Ephesus taught, whether bliss or torment, are merely foretastes, with the departed receiving a foretaste of hell if they departed in wickedness, and of heaven if they departed in righteousness. The torment then, experienced by those faithful who departed in a state of unrighteousness is not for the purpose of expiation, nor is it the punishing power of God, but stems from the darkness of being deprived of the divine light while awaiting the resurrection. It is believed that through the prayers of the Church, and most especially the commemoration of the dead during the bloodless sacrifice that they may eventually be released from torment and come to a restful state while awaiting the resurrection and final judgment. There simply is no tradition in the East of receiving the exact temporal punishment due for one’s sins, as sins forgiven by God do not necessitate punishment, and sins which are retained are punished not temporally but eternally.

The Orthodox Council I quoted and linked to does not say this. It says the righteous are punished–see again. If a Pan-Orthodox Council does not represent Orthodox doctrine, or at least the common teaching at one time, what does?
Pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem:

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike.

Also, regarding tollhouses which were brought up earlier in the thread, their description seems to have also changed a bit over the years. Here’s St. Cyril of Alexandria’s description, which describes a process where satisfaction is exacted for sins before one’s progress to Heaven can be completed:
St. Cyril of Alexandria:

At Our soul’s separation from the body, there will stand before us on one side warriors and powers of Heaven, and on the other side the powers of darkness, the princes of this world, the aerial publicans, the torturers, the prosecutors of our deeds… Seeing them, the soul is dismayed, it shudders, and in consternation and horror will seek protection from the angels of God; but being received by the holy angels and passing through the aerial space, lifted on high under their protection, it encounters the toll-booths, as it were, certain gates or toll houses in which taxes are exacted which will bar its way into the Kingdom, will halt and hold back its progress towards it. At each of these toll-booths an account is demanded for particular sins.

 

[ajecphotos]

Ajec- Purgatory is not about having another chance. Those in purgatory will be in heaven but are undergoing purification…removing all desire to sin…

Can you supply a source for the above quote? Be nice to see where you get that from and I can look at it myself. Thanks

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This thread just gave me a gigantic headache :hammering:



Lord in Heaven, please grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference, Amen.

 

[Porknpie]

Can you supply a source for the above quote? Be nice to see where you get that from and I can look at it myself. Thanks

Ajec -

Here’s the Catechism again. Subject here is the “Particular Judgement” that occurs at our death. There is no second chance.

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 **Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.**596

 

[ajecphotos]

Ajec -

Here’s the Catechism again. Subject here is the “Particular Judgement” that occurs at our death. There is no second chance.

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 **Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.**596

Thanks.

Problem I see is that is from the catechism. Where in the bible does it state it?

Where does it mention purgatory?

I know that one can quote parables but how can one say that purgatory is what was ment in those parables? Like noses, opinions are the same. They can all be different. I am not disputing what is written. I am trying to understand it.

I read different parables in the gospels and can interpret different meanings with some than what others see. Am I wrong? As I said, I don’t want to dispute what the church teaches but want to understand more. Thanks

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

So every single human soul right now (you and me too if we die before Jesus returns) is in fire…a place of torment, as per the EO understanding?

Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham seems to be fine.

Read the entire passage. Some after death are experiencing the foretaste of hell and others after death are experiencing the foretaste of heaven. They are all in the same place, yet separated.

 

[Augustine3]

How do the Christian Orthodox interpret this passage?

Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart. – Matthew 18:34-35

 

[Porknpie]

Thanks.

Problem I see is that is from the catechism. Where in the bible does it state it?

Where does it mention purgatory?

I know that one can quote parables but how can one say that purgatory is what was ment in those parables? Like noses, opinions are the same. They can all be different. I am not disputing what is written. I am trying to understand it.

I read different parables in the gospels and can interpret different meanings with some than what others see. Am I wrong? As I said, I don’t want to dispute what the church teaches but want to understand more. Thanks

Ajec -

You are avoiding my question(s). I answered yours… you can answer mine. See post 61.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

So, the thief is not fully in paradise with Jesus…partial paradise for the thief…OK…Have a good night brother…

Because of what you have been posting,** I believe you are saying that you believe these two things**, please correct me if I’m misunderstanding your belief about the passage:

1. On the day of the Crucifixion you believe that Jesus went to heaven (rather than what we believe that Jesus went down into Hades as the Bible says he did in 1 Peter 3:19-20)
2. On the day of the Crucifixion that the “good” thief died (rather than what we believe that the “good” thief, and the "bad one, were removed from their crosses alive before the Sabbath alive after his legs wree broken as the Bible says happened in John 19:31-33)

 

[joe370]

Read the entire passage. Some after death are experiencing the foretaste of hell and others after death are experiencing the foretaste of heaven. They are all in the same place, yet separated.

That’s cool. I myself believe that every person, thanks to Jesus opening up the gates to heaven, (hell notwithstanding) goes directly to heaven or is on their way to heaven via some sort of purgative process. If a soul can survive the body (something we both believe) then a soul can survive in heaven until his/her soul receives his/her glorified body; not just in hell, or in some middle state, experiencing the foretaste of heaven.

 

[joe370]

ComeHome2Rome;10297955]Because of what you have been posting,** I believe you are saying that you believe these two things**, please correct me if I’m misunderstanding your belief about the passage:

1. On the day of the Crucifixion you believe that Jesus went to heaven (rather than what we believe that Jesus went down into Hades as the Bible says he did in 1 Peter 3:19-20)

Catholics believe that Jesus went down into Hades as the Bible says he did in 1 Peter 3:19-20).

1. On the day of the Crucifixion that the “good” thief died (rather than what we believe that the “good” thief, and the "bad one, were removed from their crosses alive before the Sabbath alive after his legs wree broken as the Bible says happened in John 19:31-33)

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Whether they were removed alive, and killed another way, or were killed on the cross, is irrelevant to our discussion. The consensus is: sadly, their legs were broken to facilitate their death. Speed it along…

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

joe370:
Catholics believe that Jesus went down into Hades as the Bible says he did in 1 Peter 3:19-20).

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Whether they were removed alive, and killed another way, or were killed on the cross, is irrelevant to our discussion. The consensus is: sadly, their legs were broken to facilitate their death. Speed it along…

It is relevent. You’re claiming that Jesus’ comment to the “good” thief means that Jesus & the “good” thief died and went to heaven that exact day. It has already been shown that paradise doesn’t mean heaven.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Whether they were removed alive, and killed another way, or were killed on the cross, is irrelevant to our discussion. The consensus is: sadly, their legs were broken to facilitate their death. Speed it along…

The legs of the thieves were only broken because they were alive- if Jesus were alive, they would have broken His legs, too. The breaking of the legs after a crucifixion was intended & was successful at hobbling the criminal who had been put up on display, not to kill them. Broken bones didn’t kill people, they had physicians. Keep in mind it was Jesus not the thieves who had endured all night beatings, whippings, scourging & nails driven threw him and he only who had wept blood the night before. The thieves didn’t die that day.

 

[joe370]

Catholics believe that Jesus went down into Hades as the Bible says he did in 1 Peter 3:19-20).

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Whether they were removed alive, and killed another way, or were killed on the cross, is irrelevant to our discussion. The consensus is: sadly, their legs were broken to facilitate their death. Speed it along…

It is relevent. You’re claiming that Jesus’ comment to the “good” thief means that Jesus & the “good” thief died and went to heaven that exact day. It has already been shown that paradise doesn’t mean heaven.

So what Jesus meant was: today you will be with me in paradise, aka Hades? OK. Just because Jesus went down to Hades does not mean that he had no access to His eternal Home, namely heaven, day one…

 

[joe370]

ComeHome2Rome;10298772]The legs of the thieves were only broken because they were alive- if Jesus were alive, they would have broken His legs, too. The breaking of the legs after a crucifixion was intended & was successful at hobbling the criminal who had been put up on display, **not to kill them.
**

What then, did they do with them…? Breaking the legs of a crucified person would cause suffocation, thereby hastening things…

Broken bones didn’t kill people, they had physicians…The thieves didn’t die that day.

So they were released?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

So what Jesus meant was: today you will be with me in paradise, aka Hades? OK. Just because Jesus went down to Hades does not mean that he had no access to His eternal Home, namely heaven, day one…

A “Day”, “Soon”, “a Thousand Years” and “Today” in God’s timing isn’t the same as a those same terms used by us in our timing.

The Fathers, one of which was quoted earlier in this thread by another Orthodox Christian, explain that Jesus was saying that the “good” thief’s name was written into the Book of Life. Not that he literally would be taken to paradise (whether that means actually means paradise, Abramham’s bosom or heaven) and would be there that every day with Jesus. We’ve already established & you said the Catholic Church agrees which the Bible that Jesus did Not go to paradise, but He went to hades for those 3 days after his death & before His Resurrection + Jesus Himself after His Resurrection told the woman in the garden that He had NOT ascended to the Father yet.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

So they were released?

Yes, the had their punishment & were hobbled and the Jews insisted that they all be finished with this “work” & get home before the sunset so they wouldn’t violate the Sabbath.

 

[joe370]

A “Day”, “Soon”, “a Thousand Years” and “Today” in God’s timing isn’t the same as a those same terms used by us in our timing.

The Fathers, one of which was quoted earlier in this thread by another Orthodox Christian, explain that Jesus was saying that the “good” thief’s name was written into the Book of Life. Not that he literally would be taken to paradise (whether that means actually means paradise, Abramham’s bosom or heaven) and would be there that every day with Jesus. We’ve already established & you said the Catholic Church agrees which the Bible that Jesus did Not go to paradise, but He went to hades for those 3 days after his death & before His Resurrection + Jesus Himself after His Resurrection told the woman in the garden that He had NOT ascended to the Father yet.

I just believe that there are many souls in heaven right now, with Jesus, (the Trinity) His mother, all the angels etc…Maybe you are right though…who knows…

 

[joe370]

Yes, the had their punishment & were hobbled and the Jews insisted that they all be finished with this “work” & get home before the sunset so they wouldn’t violate the Sabbath.

Hmmm…What kind of message (from the Roman empire) would that send to future criminals, in terms of scaring them into submission? The Roman Empire was ruthless as you know.

Is that the official Eastern Orthodox belief?