Question about Purgatory

[ComeHome2Rome]

I just believe that there are many souls in heaven right now, with Jesus, (the Trinity) His mother, all the angels etc…Maybe you are right though…who knows…

What would be the point of the resurrection of the living and the dead, if they were already in and experiencing Heaven or Hell.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Hmmm…What kind of message (from the Roman empire) would that send to future criminals, in terms of scaring them into submission? The Roman Empire was ruthless as you know.

Hobbling someone is ruthless. This was a pre-wheelchair & pre-disability income & pre-morphine era.

 

[joe370]

What would be the point of the resurrection of the living and the dead, if they were already in and experiencing Heaven or Hell.

To receive their glorified bodies. Full restoration. you do not believe that certain souls are in hell right now, as we speak?

 

[joe370]

Hobbling someone is ruthless. This was a pre-wheelchair & pre-disability income & pre-morphine era.

The Romans, as you know, crucified people for a reason; to send a message:

Break the law, end up dead in a horrible way!

Again, is what you are suggesting an official EO belief, or, your interpretation?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, the had their punishment & were hobbled and the Jews insisted that they all be finished with this “work” & get home before the sunset so they wouldn’t violate the Sabbath.

Source?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Problem I see is that is from the catechism. Where in the bible does it state it?

1 Corinthians 3:15- “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire”

The translation of Purgatory is purge-purify, also this link might help.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.”

Matthew 5:26 “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

 

[Porknpie]

Hobbling someone is ruthless. This was a pre-wheelchair & pre-disability income & pre-morphine era.

I’d like to know the source and if this is official Orthodox treaching. Breaking their legs prevented them from lifting themselves up to breath, hastening their death by suffocation. This was made very clear to me a few years ago when a physician presented a medical view of what happened to one that was crucified, including a discussion of how breaking the legs accelerated suffocation (prevented them from lifting themselves up to breath)

The text is clear…on this day…

 

[ajecphotos]

I’d like to know the source and if this is official Orthodox treaching. Breaking their legs prevented them from lifting themselves up to breath, hastening their death by suffocation. This was made very clear to me a few years ago when a physician presented a medical view of what happened to one that was crucified, including a discussion of how breaking the legs accelerated suffocation (prevented them from lifting themselves up to breath)

The text is clear…on this day…

This is well know and correct. They broke the legs to suffocate them thus hasten death. Nothing else.

 

[Porknpie]

This is well know and correct. They broke the legs to suffocate them thus hasten death. Nothing else.

Ajec …post 61…

I’m curious to your answer…

 

[ajecphotos]

Ajec …post 61…

I’m curious to your answer…

See post 59.

As I said there, just my personal belief but I am learning every day! I hunger for gods ‘truth’

 

[zz912]

Except for the virgin who was taken up body and soul. The Orthodox affirm the necessity for humans to have a body (i.e., to be complete as we were intended to be) in order to experience heaven or hell proper, against Platonizing influences which would undermine the necessity of having a body.

Revelation 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.

I guess the altar is not in Heaven then?

 

[Porknpie]

See post 59.

As I said there, just my personal belief but I am learning every day! I hunger for gods ‘truth’

Ajec -

Post #59 does not answer my question.

Your personal belief is shaped by some thought, insight or teaching. To say that one has a second chance after death is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I’m asking from where do you get your personal belief aside from the Church itself?

 

[ajecphotos]

I have a mind of my own. Am I not allowed to deviate or look at what I read in a different view than that which the Catholic Church prints? Is everything they say written in stone not to be changed slightly etc?

Didn’t The Jews complain to Jesus that they didn’t want to deviate from the written Jewish law? They didn’t want to derail their beliefs in anyway. They were not open to other views. They didn’t want to believe Jesus

I am not saying that I don’t believe what the church has written. I am just throwing my thoughts into the bowl, so to speak!

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Orthodox Council I quoted and linked to does not say this. It says the righteous are punished–see again. If a Pan-Orthodox Council does not represent Orthodox doctrine, or at least the common teaching at one time, what does?

As a non-Orthodox Christian, you simply do not know enough about our faith to correctly interpret the statements of our councils. Without knowing the concurrence of the teachings of our saints and of our other councils and synods, how can one hope to interpret this statement accurately? It would be like trying to pick up the Scriptures and interpreting them without the aid of tradition.

Here are some examples of other sources of Orthodox teaching on the matter. An addition to the Synodikon of Orthodoxy (which is meant to condemn all heresies, from Arianism to Iconoclasm and more) from a synod in 1583 reads: Whoever says that the souls of Christians who repented while in the world but failed to perform their penance go to a purgatory of fire when they die, where there is flame and punishment, and are purified, which is simply an ancient Greek myth, and those who, like Origen, think that hell is not everlasting, and thereby afford or offer the liberty or incentive to sin, let him and all such persons be anathema.

Likewise, Mark of Ephesus taught against purgatory that: But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which even though they have repented over them they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.
Elsewhere he teaches that the dead depart either into torment or to rest (foretastes of heaven or hell) while awaiting the final judgment, and that those in torment may be released from this torment by the prayers of the faithful and most especially by the sacrifice of the Eucharist.

Now notice that the XVIIIth point of the confession contradicts neither of these but is in concurrence with them and their rejection of punishment as a means of cleansing. As the confessions reads, souls are delivered from torment “by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release.” Notice how specifically no mention is made (in agreement with the synod of 1583 and Mark of Ephesus) of punishment as a means of deliverance, but only of the prayers of the faithful and the unbloody sacrifice.

The Orthodox objections to the doctrine of purgatory have always been threefold. The first is that God must punish sins which have been forgiven (and as a corollary, that punishment is the means by which those who depart this life are cleansed). The second is that there is a place where purgation happens. The third is that this purgation is performed by fire. The latter two teachings seem to have fallen out of favor with the Latins, but the first teaching remains a stumbling block, and it has never been a part of the Orthodox tradition, no matter how much one may misinterpret the words of our councils.

Also, regarding tollhouses which were brought up earlier in the thread, their description seems to have also changed a bit over the years. Here’s St. Cyril of Alexandria’s description, which describes a process where satisfaction is exacted for sins before one’s progress to Heaven can be completed:

The toll houses were never meant to be read in such a literal fashion in the first place. Using them as support of purgatory is a stretch, especially since in the toll house accounts, it is the demons which torment the departed soul, not God, and this is not at all in line with the doctrine that God cleanses the departed with punishing fire.

 

[Cavaradossi]

1 Corinthians 3:15- “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire”

St. John Chrysostom does not interpret this verse to mean that the departed are cleansed by God’s punishing fire, but rather he interprets it as meaning that the torment of those whose work is burned up will be everlasting. Hence they are “saved” (which he interprets to mean that they are not destroyed by hellfire but worse that they are eternally tormented by it) through the fire.

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.”

2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

Yes, but these two have nothing to do with the Orthodox rejection of purgatory, which is rather specific.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Revelation 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.

I guess the altar is not in Heaven then?

In what sense do you mean in Heaven? Do you mean that the altar is in the sky (the Greek word for heaven means sky, among other things)? Then perhaps it is in heaven. Do you mean that it is in the presence of God? Then yes. Do you mean that it is in the restored creation? Then no. Do you mean that the souls have been resurrected and dwell in the restored creation? Then again, no.

 

[Vico]

**Cavaradossi, I thought you were familiar with the Catechism?**1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85
**The analogical fire:

1 Cor 3**10* According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day* will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.f 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire.

 

[joe370]

In what sense do you mean in Heaven? Do you mean that the altar is in the sky (the Greek word for heaven means sky, among other things)? Then perhaps it is in heaven. Do you mean that it is in the presence of God? Then yes. Do you mean that it is in the restored creation? Then no. Do you mean that the souls have been resurrected and dwell in the restored creation? Then again, no.

I think he means simply, in God’s presence, like Mary, something you do not believe because, as you mentioned and believe, human souls, other than our mother Mary, have yet to receive their glorified bodies, and therefore do not enjoy the same privileges.

 

[joe370]

**Cavaradossi, I thought you were familiar with the Catechism?**1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85
**The analogical fire:

1 Cor 3**10* According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day* will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.f 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire.

As a former protestant, that was the only way I could interpret that passage.

 

[joe370]

Cavaradossi;10301521]St. John Chrysostom does not interpret this verse to mean that the departed are cleansed by God’s punishing fire, but rather he interprets it as meaning that the torment of those whose work is burned up will be everlasting. Hence they are “saved” (which he interprets to mean that they are not destroyed by hellfire but worse that they are eternally tormented by it) through the fire.

That quote of his reveals that a person who builds with straw…etc… his works will be burned up, but he will continue on burning in hell. That makes no sense in light of the following: But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.